I don't understand (self.zoophilia)
submitted 2014-03-31 05:10:58 by skepticcaucasian

I'm kind of a zoophile, but I've never had sex with another animal. Though I do have a blog where I can (somewhat) talk about it comfortably, and recently, I've been seeing people say that animals cannot consent to sex. Is this true? I mean, humans ARE animals just as much as any other animal, and as long as you be safe and never hurt the animal in the said relationship, how could it be wrong? Especially if there's a strong bond between the two?

electricfoxx 1 point on 2014-03-31 05:56:15

My hypothesis goes something like this:

  • Sin means "off the mark" (not immoral). Meaning: not being perfect.
  • Christian philosophers tried to figure out the mind of God.
  • Natural Law was discovered.
  • They deduced that if something was natural, it was good. E.G. Having babies is natural so all good sex should lead to reproduction. (or something)
  • However, Natural Law ethics invoke the Naturalistic Fallacy (what is, should be).
Cromcorrag 1 point on 2014-04-01 18:41:05

It's interesting that those who shout about what is natural or un-natural sexually, hate to be shown the reality of Bonobo apes. Because the reality of Bonobos shoots down all the arguments of what is and is not "natural".

Thorwawayyey 1 point on 2014-05-25 12:20:28

What are these, exactly?

I mean, I'm pro-zoo, I'm simply curious. Never heard of the argument (though I prefer not to get in many arguments on this subject)

Cromcorrag 1 point on 2014-06-24 03:53:37

Google them. The fact that they are little known, shows you how embarrassing they are to prudish humans.

I'll post some links below too.

The argument from religious types is that only heterosexual sex is "natural" and "only for procreation". Any other kind of sex is "un-natural" because they think it doesn't happen even in nature among any other creatures. They will say "sure, some animals hump each other, but it's a display of dominance not sex". But Bonobos plainly have sex for pleasure (just like humans do) and have sex in every way imaginable, in every gender combination.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bonobo

http://www.animalfactguide.com/animal-facts/bonobo/

http://www.eva.mpg.de/3chimps/files/apes.htm

autowikibot 1 point on 2014-06-24 03:53:50

#####	

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####	 Bonobo:


The bonobo (/bəˈnoʊboʊ/ or /ˈbɒnəboʊ/), Pan paniscus, formerly called the pygmy chimpanzee and less often, the dwarf or gracile chimpanzee, is an endangered great ape and one of the two species making up the genus Pan; the other is Pan troglodytes, or the common chimpanzee. Although the name "chimpanzee" is sometimes used to refer to both species together, it is usually understood as referring to the common chimpanzee, while Pan paniscus is usually referred to as the bonobo.


Image i


Interesting: Bonobo \(musician) ^| Bonobo \(component model) ^| Bonobos \(apparel) ^| Lola ya Bonobo

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foxyramirez 5 points on 2014-03-31 07:51:04

Some folks are simply ignorant of observational cues. Just as we have our own methods of consent within our species, so too do other species within the animal kingdom. Obviously, the animal kingdom isn't exactly rife with rape, animals consent to each other. The animals with the most desirable traits get more consent with partners, this is the essential tick of evolution. That said, if you understand what cues to look for, you may find that your prospective animal partner has just the same thing in mind as you do. However, if you don't receive any cues, it'd be wise not to force yourself on an animal, that's the fast road to getting hurt and/or cause psychological trauma on said animal.

skepticcaucasian 1 point on 2014-03-31 22:44:56

Ah, yeah. Thank you. :)

ZoroasterTheCat 6 points on 2014-03-31 14:49:27

Anti-zoos always bring up the consent arguement, it's like their trump card. They just use this to legitimize their emotional reaction for which they have no sound argument to defend. Animals can consent, it is just via non-verbal cues. Besides, we do things to animals all the time that they would never consent to. You think chickens consent to being locked in cages their entire life? Or that cows consent to be slaughtered? But as soon as you bring the ick-factor of zoophilia into play, it's "They can't consent!" It's up to you to decide whether you believe their argument or not. Do you think they can consent?

[deleted] 1 point on 2014-04-26 16:01:02

[deleted]

[deleted] 1 point on 2014-05-03 06:47:32

Indeed they do

pawsorGTFO Canidae 3 points on 2014-03-31 21:25:06

Yes, it's true animals cannot verbally consent--many non-zoos use this as the gold standard of ability to consent, but of course animals will fail an artificial standard like this. After all, they're not human. They'll also bring up that there's no way to know for certain animals are enjoying things--which is true, we can't know with absolute 100% certainty. But given the similarities in mammalian brain organization (limbic system, etc.), and the body language animal exhibit which we routinely accept and intrinsically understand in any other situation, I don't feel concerned about that miniscule chance.

However, as others have mentioned here, animals are very capable of consenting in their own way. While it's ideal for you to know an animal closely before taking things to that level, so you can better read their behavioral cues, there are times where it's perfectly obvious. I've been around a female dog who'd simply let out a low warning growl if her comfort level was being breached, which I respected. I've likewise been around unbelievably enthusiastic and persistent dogs, to the point they've literally almost forced themselves on me! (not that I minded, mind you...)

Some more persistent folks will get into the idea of "informed consent"--that since an animal doesn't and can't know it's "being taken advantage of", it's therefore being taken advantage of. Do animals understand the biology behind sex, and carry around with them the emotional baggage we humans do in regard to sex? Probably not. But it's something they can and do enjoy in some situations, and they seem to be pretty good at deciding for themselves if, and when, they want to partake in it.

Lastly, there's the notion that humans are in a position of power over animals, and could do things like withhold food or affection if an animal's not "putting out". But ultimately, there's the same grounding of trust our society has: that people can keep animals, and won't mistreat them. Sadly, some people are pieces of shit and abuse their animals, and some so-called zoos are pieces of shit and sexually abuse their animals. But almost nobody is demanding that society abandon pet ownership because of the people in that former group; it's simply the squick factor that makes people bring up the argument in the latter case.

[deleted] 1 point on 2014-04-01 11:50:30

[deleted]

Cromcorrag 1 point on 2014-04-01 18:34:07

Bravo. Well stated.

Cromcorrag 2 points on 2014-04-01 18:27:27

The whole consent issue is moot. These same people who say an animal can't consent to sex, see no problem killing the same animal. They reason animals have always been used for food and clothing and that is "normal", but having sex with them is not, so is wrong.

Reality check. Animals can and do consent to sex with humans. Once you understand them well enough you can see for yourself.

Cromcorrag 1 point on 2014-04-01 18:29:39

And BTW, here's a couple old threads on the very issue:

http://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceClop/comments/xqihl/so_yeah/

http://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceClop/comments/xuqdz/a_serious_question/

A couple of the top comments on those threads:

http://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceClop/comments/xuqdz/a_serious_question/c5refqw

http://www.reddit.com/r/SpaceClop/comments/xuqdz/a_serious_question/c5q892o

WTF? I just checked the links and see that /r/spaceclop has gone private? Or is undergoing repair??? Fuck. I hope they are not erasing old posts.

Parasprite 1 point on 2014-04-02 21:45:35

Mutki decided to nuke the sub and is holding it hostage when he suddenly realized that /r/clopclop + /r/spacedicks would lead to pictures of people fucking horses (and it only took 2 years for him to figure that out!)

Luckily, I remembered your username and that is why I am here.

Since I have no time on my hands nor much enthusiasm for the subject and I know you have a great enthusiasm for the subject, care to try your hand at moderating and/or populating /r/spaceclops? (I nabbed it from Angel now that they left reddit...or ran away or something)

Cromcorrag 2 points on 2014-04-02 22:02:22

That sucks. So Mutki was the one who started SpaceClop? I wonder what he's planning? Why not just give it to someone like me instead of deleting it? sigh. It'll be a shame to lose all those good old threads. I realize it had little to do with pure MLP stuff or dick sandwiches (or whatever that odd logo was, lol) , but its mix of MLP, horse porn, and interesting threads made it an interesting forum.

So what are you offering me? You say Angel registered a similar forum called SpaceClop(s) that has been unused so far and you're offering me the main Mod job for it? I might be willing. But I only log in here through TOR and not every day. Sometimes a week or more goes by, since I play WoW. So what would I need to do?

Parasprite 1 point on 2014-04-02 22:24:26

I doubt he's planning to do anything with it tbh. He's not a hugely active user on reddit.

/r/spaceclops was registered to redirect users to /r/spaceclop and since they deleted their account it was open to request and I took the opportunity as I'd remembered it was free.

No idea yet considering nothing is up. I log on and comment almost every day (even when I'm busy) but I have too much to do to much with the layout or planning or actually populate it with content (and no library for which to populate it with). I might see if I can dig up the old stylesheet somehow using google and some very tailored searches, but I've no plans other than that.

I've also modded /u/XelNaga but I've no idea of their intensions at the moment.

Also, I've set the sub to private for now.

Cromcorrag 1 point on 2014-04-02 22:30:15

OK. I've only toyed with the settings a little, so you should take a look and see if I've done anything wrong. I guess I'll spend a little time on it every day till I feel it's laid out ok, and if it meets with your approval then... let me know.

sollemi 1 point on 2014-04-03 14:41:48

Hey... could I all have access to it once it's back?

Cromcorrag 1 point on 2014-04-04 05:14:58

To what? SpaceClop? Who knows if it'll ever be back. Man.. it's a shame to lose all those old threads because it was nice to refer back to them at times. And I never bothered to save them because they seemed secure, ah well.

sollemi 1 point on 2014-04-04 18:39:06

:(

sollemi 1 point on 2014-04-03 14:34:21

Consent is a made-up justification. In earlier times they would have told you that it is against God's will. Nowadays consent vs rape is en vogue.

These reasons are interchangeable like plug and play, because they are justifications after the fact. People first get disgusted or whatever, and then make up a "logical" argument to be able to get rid of it.

Consent: Either they will argue animals can't talk. That is stupid, there are many threads on reddit alone about how well owners understand their pets. Whether they are happy, what they like, if they need a walk etc etc. But all of a sudden for sex in particular such communication, e.g. by body language, by mooing, neighing, growling or whatever is impossible? Bullshit. Moreover, the same people are frighteningly unable to produce documentation that their last human partners consented to the sexual intercourse. So much for that.

Or they will say the animal is not intelligent enough. So it cannot judge the consequences and therefore not consent 'fully'. Many humans also have no idea and get STDs or babies nobody wants. These needed to be prosecuted too, then. Or they will say animals are like mentally challenged people. Then mentally challenged people have just been reduced in status, and also can never have sex. Also, the barrier is difficult to set. Dolphins are quite intelligent. Can they have sex? Is an IQ of 80 enough? 70? 60 vs 59? Or they will say it's like pedophilia. They do this because animals nowadays are completely bambified. Pets are cute. Not fierce. Or there to work. And conveniently it can be linked to something there is no discussion about. However, how is a mature, 7 year old horse that weighs a good fraction of a ton and can punch you through the wall if it wants to equal to a say six year old? One is mature and has a sex drive, the other is not and has not.

They will say animals depend on humans and therefore it is not right, as we exploit that status then. First of all, many people very successfully had sex with wild animals and then people complained, too, cue the wet goddess. And second, if that is so questionable, then most marriages are questionable, as in one way or the other often one part relies on the other more than the other way round. At least for emotional support or something like that. Otherwise there would unlikely be a marriage in the first place.

And then, overarching this, first of all nobody has ever run towards a bull starting on a cow and pulled him off, because "The cow can't talk, it can't consent!!". And second, more than 8 out of 10 people eat meat. I don't think all those dead animals sliced and sold in supermarkets for consumption consented to that. Or to the breeding we did with dogs and horses, to just pic a few species we did this too. Many labradoodles would probably have been preferred to be left alone. Tests for cosmetics are done on animals etc etc etc. Basically, in no other circumstances are people so deeply concerned that the animal can't or didn't consent.

In conclusion: This consent argument is on several levels stupid. The kicker: zoos do obtain consent and have great, mutually enjoyable sex. They don't just jump on a dog that happens to come along or something. Such sick fucks also exist, but that's again the same under humans: just because some are rapists, we don't outlaw all sex 'just to be safe'.

OakTable 1 point on 2014-04-08 06:17:39

So your justification is that fucking an animal is as harmful to it as killing it, and that's why it's ok? So... hurting animals is a good thing, then? Sounds reasonable. I'll get right on kicking my pit bull in the balls, then.

sollemi 1 point on 2014-04-11 19:48:44

Did you read my conclusion at all? You seem to have everything backwards. I disagree with pretty much all you said. So... friends?