Should we fight, or should we hide? (self.zoophilia)
submitted 2014-10-16 19:01:55 by furvert_tail Equine, large canid
Adrenaline has been getting to me lately, for obvious reasons. Fighting for our freedom has not worked for us so far — ever, as far as I know (please correct me if I'm wrong) — but it seems so tempting. Why are we unconvincing? We've had self-appointed figureheads, what have they done badly? Why are our opponents doing so much better than we are?
We live in a world that simply isn't ready for us yet.
There isn't anything we've done wrong, per se, but we do have the odds stacked against us because we push against human society in so many ways.
We're small. Being a zoo is very rare, and because of that, the average person is almost never introduced to zoophilia by someone they trust - they'll read about it in a newspaper or online, and they therefore have knee-jerk reactions.
People don't understand our partners. The vast majority of people believe that animals cannot consent and/or that they are "furkids" - that term makes me shudder. Unfortunately, these beliefs are ingrained into our anthrocentric society.
We're different. People fear what they do not understand, and they certainly do not understand us. Remember that gays are not fully accepted yet - there isn't any room for us while they're still on the stage.
We are doing the most we can do while ensuring the safety of those we love, because that is what is fundamentally more important than personal freedoms. It is better to work underground and ensure the safety of our partners until it is safe to go above ground than to force ourselves into the public sphere and risk our safety and the lives of our partners.
Perhaps you think it is so tempting because you, as of now, have nothing to lose. Wait until you do. Keep in mind that being a zoophile now is the best than it has been since pre-Byzantine Europe. Try to appreciate that you're able to partake in in online community with those of your sexuality regardless of their location - countless zoos throughout history probably spent many years, if not their whole lives, believing they were sinners and completely alone in their attractions. If you do... the way things are don't seem so unpalatable.
I think we could do better.
For example, look at how happy newspapers are about quoting someone from a "pressure group", whatever that is: https://www.google.com/#q="Michael+Kiok"+"pressure+group"
There's nothing wrong with quoting him, but I can't help but wonder: Quotes and interviews with random zoophiles or the zeta verein are relatively common, but what you hardly ever see is anyone attempting to read stuff like this: http://cultureghost.net/viewtopic.php?f=42&t=11503
There are several more or less scientific resources, some easier to read, some harder. But it's there. What is it about journalists that always seem to omit this?
Good point, well made. Going to the pub with friends helped me calm down a bit, even if I couldn't talk to anyone about this.
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I feel it just isn't time for us yet. We don't have enough scientific research to back us up, and society's views are largely still against consenting relationships between homosexual adults, let alone relationships cross-species.
Maybe it won't even be in our lifetime, but we'll fight someday. But for now, it's better to hide.
Devil's advocate, what scientific research is there backing up homosexuality?
Well, there is this and this, which is an article that tells about males born with micropenises that had surgeries done on them at birth to remove them. They were raised as girls, but they were mainly attracted to females, which indicates that sexuality is determined by birth, not by upbringing. Those are two that I brought up off the top of my head, there might be better ones out there.
More scientific research would be useful to our cause, but it might not be required. I don't think that any specific scientific research helped LGBT rights in a significant way, but if I'm wrong, please tell me.
I think we should do neither. A direct confrontation will always end badly for us. As it still often does for gays. Shit, people in Montreal are murdered for being gay still, and that is a cosmopolitan city if I've ever been in one.
Quietly confronting stereotypes, giving yourself a voice, no matter how anonymous, and firmly but kindly asserting yourself will be how slow change comes. The lasting kind of change. The gay cause was really helped by AIDS, believe it or not, because people could see on the news other PEOPLE who were fighting for what they took for granted. At the time I lost someone dear to me to AIDS, at the same time I had a gun in my face, shouts from passing cars for walking down the street with another man(no, no holding hands or anything), and so forth. The world is becoming more scared, the future less bright, it is not time now to fight, but I cannot ever hide away completely. There is good in humans if not humanity.
I have a tumblr, it's mostly just horse photos but I am openly zoo on there. I very seldom get any hate. Sometimes I get blocked or ignored. Just this week I had five nice people, non-zoos, only two anonymously contact me and thank me for being out. They each described how they either didn't think about zoophilia or hadn't been really exposed someone who was zoosexual until realizing what I was. All expressed the disbelief, after having read what I wrote about my life that I could possibly be hurting my marefriend.
The so-called "news" media is just entertainment, and many people don't want to be reminded of ethics or be given thoughtful prose. Look at how well PBS, CBC, BBC news programs have been doing lately. IT will always be cheaper, get more ratings, and make more sales to quote a "pressure" group than to investigate and go... "hold on there, there is more to this than you think."
In most places it is still not illegal to have thoughts. Although like that case in Vancouver with the vet deciding to teach the outspoken zoo a lesson, putting your name to zoo makes you a target.
Is the tumblr community different to the people who are active on facebook? I don't actively use facebook, I'm just looking around what people are writing and it is usually like this...
Granted, the topic seems to only come up in shitty sensationalist "activism" groups, so it's probably quite biased.
I would say in general the hate is more "lock em up and throw away the key" The only time I received death threats was when I was placed on a list by some dude going by the name Kink Master. (his page says to block folks but you know... and an offence to get on the list is to say the "zoo fight at this stage is remarkably like the struggle gays faced in 1890") There are some claiming to actively be seeking to out folks but they are remarkably ineffective or inactive.
Pretty much you are going to get the comments you describe in any public forum, ever read a local newspaper comment section when gays are mentioned? But to be honest, we are conflagrated with folks who stick sharpened spikes in mares for whatever reason they do that. It's all sex abuse. I often tell people their opinion of me is based on what they are seeing in their own head and not my actions and that their head must be a dark place. FB proves the old adage about assholes though... :) just like opinions.
Out of interest, did you mean 1890, or was that a typo?
1890s. Gays rights have come a long way. Many gays are open about their sexuality(ie not hiding) and not getting much in the way of punitive penalties for it. (Some still do obviously, but generally being gay isn't an automatic "your out of society" sentence anymore.) When I look at the epochs of gay rights, I generally break it up into 1890, 1920, 1950, 1960, 1980 and 2000s. Each with it's own set of problems and each with its own set of advancements.
I guess that was a lot of words to say, no, that isn't a typo. A zoo would be shunned at work at the best. I have heard of an instance of a group knowing but just ignoring the zoos sexuality (don't ask and don't tell) but I think that's pretty rare. Of course, maybe there is more acceptance out there than I think, it is so hard to tell.
I am not a zoo, but I believe it may be one of those things that just takes time and patients. The best way to win and argument is to avoid getting angry at all and staying calm and understanding the whole time (as well as willing to be convinced you are wrong). By hiding people will just form their opinions from the rest of society, which is that it is wrong. From what I have seen it goes much the same way gay rights went. The reason it likely has not been succulence in the past is because it was not until relatively recently that these types of social changes were even in the realm of possibility, so of course progress will be slow for a while, but I believe if you stand up for yourself and do so non-agressively, eventually people will start to understand. It may take a very long time, but it will come eventually, though you have to be willing to accept the potential consequences if you choose to out yourself because of the way people feel about it currently. I tried debating it once and got some serious threats from one person in particular and not very good results over all (though I did not handle the argument well tbh). Apparently it is impossible to support zoophiles without raping animals and being obsessed with animal sex according to their rather flawed logic.
Just curious, why are you browsing /r/zoophilia if you're not a zoo?
It is a combination of that I like the people here and I do not have any other high controversy issues to stand behind at the time being (well I do, but there are not places to discuss them like I can zoophilia here). I know that the way zoophiles are treated is deplorable and I come here to see if anybody needs a some support from time to time. I also am a fairly big fan of other living species in general, and many zoophiles seem to have an understanding of other living creatures that is highly lacking in most of the rest of the world. Plus on top of all that, I am pretty chatty in general, so this can be another place to scan for some chatter if my other usual places do not have anything interesting going on at the time.
Well that's pretty awesome of you. We get a few 'tourists' through here every now and again, and they always seem to be pretty cool people. I mean, I guess if if someone is just popping in to a sub to see if anyone needs some support, yeah, you're probably going to be a pretty decent person.
I try to be the best person I can be. I used to be "evil" so it means very much when somebody says otherwise. Thank you. I first found this when I had gotten in a debate with people because I did not understand what the big deal with zoophilia was, and had to do some research when things were getting brought up I had not thought of. This was the first place I found where it was not all sex stuff and I could really talk to the zoophilies (I did not look at too many different places either though). The debate did not end well and I lost alot of trust with that group that day, but I also learned a good amount.
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Try to fight covertly ;)
Think about it: It is never the right time. They said it is the wrong time to declare America independent, it is the wrong time for women to get the vote. Every time it will be "ah, just not now..."
The other question: Usually the best examples we could trot out are the people with the most to lose. So they are understandably not available. The anti-side simply makes their shit up, and the problem is that is the default position. People will agree with them no matter what. In Germany PETA was talking about a ridiculous number of animals killed for sex (still much less than killed for food), and people never questioned it. Either all of us churn through a body every week, or half of adult Germany is sodomizing. But people believed it.
And right now in Denmark everyone is on the bandwagon with the alleged brothels and tourism. I very much doubt this is verifiable, but since this is a taboo topic nobody ever stands up and asks: Excuse me, where are these numbers and facts you present from? Instantly you'd be smeared, too. So taboo is the answer to your question.
Careful how you interpret this because we don't need any fucking Batmans either.
Covertly ends up with a double-meaning the other of which is "let's consult others even less on the issues that affect them; finally I can do what I please; now there's no one to criticize me!".
Ok, Ok, good remark. I meant one can surely do some good things without outing oneself. Stubbornly asking critical questions when such bandwagons as lined out above roll for example could help. And online you can use a VPN, or write a letter to the editor under a false name.
You need to get rid of that state of mind right now. T-V has one good reason why but don't wait until a dog or horse falls into your lap. It's part at the root of all those failures you've seen. There's no room for impatience or bravado in a complex interconnected long-term problem like this.
I agree with the neither. Just be safe and be smart.
I've been an activist on and off for a decade now. I was in fact a very active activist until the numerous death threats, other threats and "outing" to my family happened and took its toll on my mental health. I'm a pretty sensitive person as it is and that just made things worse for my health.
On the other hand, I do live as out as I can legally live. No one needs to know what I do in private. But, I do let nearly anyone know that I am a zoo if they question my ZETA tattoo that is on my arm or if they want to insert themselves into my social circle. I made a promise to myself a long time ago that I would never call anyone my friend who couldn't accept every part of me and I have a sizable amount of people who I can call friend already who do know that I am zoo. Sure, it's riskier than "laying low", but I can't go to jail if there is no evidence of any crime or no crime committed at all and if someone wants to physically harm me because of who I am, I have quite a few people in my life that wouldn't let that happen and I only meet new people in public places as well as taking other precautions. I am much happier being surrounded by people who accept all of me than I was 10 years ago when I had people in my life who I knew wouldn't want to be there if they found out that side of me.
Hey, ally here.
From what ive read, fighting is just a really bad idea. In the netherlands you can be thrown in jail for atleast half a year if you do so much as admit you are zoophile. And I thought the netherlands was one of the countries thats very accepting towards other sexualities than straight.
Back at the asktransgender reddit, someone mentioned how they think any attraction is ok "except to dead things, children, and animals". I very casually mentioned that the last one is very different, but kind of immediatally got mass downvoted. I thought the trans reddits would be more accepting to these things, but I guess the world is not ready for it yet.
I dont feel safe commenting on this reddit, but I feel like I should :/. Youre not alone, I guess.
Nice to hear from you. I'm surprised (and sad) to read that about the Netherlands…
Also surprising to see necrophilia described as "dead things". Leather totally fits that description, and although I eschew it because I see it as somewhat necrophilic, I thought I was quite unusual in that regard.