I thought this would be a very interesting place to ask this question, because you guys, like me, have a sexual attraction that is generally frowned upon by society. So here it is:
What are your views on pedophilia?
I wanted to ask this here for a couple different reasons...
1) In the couple of threads I've searched through, it seems like you guys defend your attraction in the same way most pedophiles I know, including myself, do. For example, you love animals, you don't just want to have sex with them. Similarly, we love children, we do not just want to have sex with them. Also, I've seen that many of you believe that animals can consent to sex with humans. We, similarly, believe that children can, in some cases, consent to sex with adults.
2) Having a sexual attraction that is so hated by society has made me extremely accepting of any other attractions there are out there. I have no problem with your attractions, even though it is completely not for me. I wanted to see if you guys had a similar mindset.
I also welcome any questions you have for me. I enjoy discussions like these. They can be very informative for everyone. :)
Is someone who is only attracted to puppies a pedozoophile?
Yes.
Touchy subject. I don't really know. I'm open to the idea that something like "voluntary pedophilia" as I have heard it being called may exist, where children participate willingly and without harm coming to them, but I am really not convinced it does. I'm just going off what I think about myself, that I would have had no problem with adults having sex with me, when I was a child. But on the other hand I don't know if this is really true and I know that I am definitely not like most people.
I have actually tried to google whether this has been researched, but haven't found much.
As far as I know the scientific consensus is that
and that children are psychologically harmed when an adult "interferes" in their sexual development by having sex with them. Since I haven't actually seen scientific evidence against that, I am going with this.
I have seen the idea come up in erotic stories with animals a few times and in "Understanding Bestiality and Zoophilia" By Hani Miletski there's an... interesting... account from "Alan" starting at page 200 in the pdf. But that's an anecdote. I have yet to find an actual study about it...
What cases are these exactly and has it been scientifically researched whether it results in harm? I mean, that's what we need to know to settle this...
An example would be when the child initiates the encounter (yes, this happens, and probably more often than we realize). In that case, not only does the child obviously want to do it, but they have also not been manipulated into doing it. I don't see how this type of situation would bring any harm to them. Unless, of course, they are caught, and society then tells them what a bad, bad thing that was that happened to them, and they begin to think it too.
I can believe that at this moment the child enjoys it with no harm.
But I am unconvinced about long term psychological consequences.
Welcome!
You're right that we love animals a great deal, and have very strong attachments to them. Many of us have sex with animals too, or would if we had them, but do not due to unfavourable living arrangements, financial or time constraints, or other personal reasons. Most of us have no moral objections, as we tend to believe that animals can consent due to their status as biological adults, and signal such through body language that they use for sexual purposes between one another, that a human can learn to read. I won't clog up the comments with what their consent looks like, but you are welcome to PM me if you'd like to know or otherwise discuss further.
Before I go on, I should make it clear that zoophiles are largely hostile towards pedophiles. We spend a good deal of our time distancing ourselves from you, because we know that association with pedophilia and the view of animals as furred children harms our case for acceptance. You've come here with an open, friendly attitude and I apologise if you are met with derision. Zoophiles, ultimately, will throw pedophiles under the bus for their acceptance, just as the gay community did to us. I know I'm cutting both sides, but that's how we think and I want you to be prepared for that.
I'll speak for myself now. Let me say that I have friends who are pedophiles, and I have no issues with them as people. I do not, however, believe that sex with a biological child (as distinct from a [post]pubescent legal minor) is permissible under any circumstances. I also believe that sex with adult animals is permissible. As well as the developmental differences between an immature member of one species and a mature member of another, animals (that have not been otherwise conditioned, which would be an abusive process in itself) lack the "obedience complex" that children possess. A child may put up with any actions of an adult without complaint simply because they were told to, because children are cognitively and socially predisposed to defer to adult authority. Animals, even biddable ones such as dogs, have no such inherent complex. An animal that has been treated well has no reason to fear retribution, and would thus act according to their needs not to be used or abused if they felt unsafe. Consent through body language, together with willing and able defence, makes bestiality morally permissible, as separate from pedophilia.
Once again though, I respect you and admire your courage in posting here. Thank you for your tolerance of us, and I can only hope you are offered the same in return, even if we disagree on certain matters.
Edit: misreading
I wouldn't consider most of these replies derisive. While most seem to disagree with me, you are at least being very civil about it, and seem much more accepting, even in your disagreement.
I have a great deal of compassion for pedophiles. They have feelings which make them even more hated than zoophiles by the public at large, and the subject brings up such emotions in people that it's hard to have a rational discussion about it.
That said, however, I do not think it right to have a sexual relationship with a child, even if they are not physically or psychologically harmed by it at the time. The reason for this is that such a child's future relationships could be affected in unpredictable ways by expectations formed in childhood, and once the child grows up they may interpret their previous relationship differently, in light of other events in their lives. Sadly, and unfairly in a way, the social stigma attached to pedophilia and the narratives attached to pedophiles in general could cause someone to be traumatized by a relationship with which they may otherwise have been satisfied.
Unlike most people, however, I think I could be convinced with sufficient evidence that pedophilic relationships aren't always harmful. But to do so would require some sort of longitudinal study of children who had sexual relationships with adults and were physically and psychologically healthy in the years and decades afterwards, preferably having told someone else about the relationship and/or heard the claims against pedophiles for themselves. This standard seems to me almost impossible to meet, but convincing people that sex with children is fine when most people are completely revolted by the very thought may be the single biggest challenge for any debater, right up there with a defense of Hitler's running of Nazi Germany.
I do have a question for you: What happens as a child ages out of a pedophile's preferred age range? With relationships between human adults, the two age together, so that it's likely that if the two are going to keep or lose their physical attraction to each other roughly in tandem. With animals, they age somewhat quickly, but speaking from my own experience they become no less physically attractive with age in general (though perhaps they are less able to exert themselves physically). But if someone is mainly attracted to children of, for instance, 9-13, then enters a relationship with a 10 year old for the long term (if that happens, which I'm assuming it does), what happens as the child enters puberty? Does the flame die within the pedophile involved? If so, do they keep the relationship going? Do they find another child on the side? What happens then? No judgement on the answer morally, just something about which I'm curious.
That is a good question that I really have no experience in, so my answer is going to be completely conjecture. I think that having been in a long term relationship with a child would increase the chances of me continuing to be attracted to them into adulthood. However, depending on how they developed, it might not be possible for me to remain sexually attracted to them. In that case, I think I would certainly still love them, and still perhaps be romantically attracted to them.
Unfornunately, for me, I would no longer be interested in him. When I was 13 to 16 years old I was attracted to my cousin who was 8 to 11. He slowly became less attractive as he got older. I remember a time he would pee while we were playing outside and he would tell me not to look, as he always did but knew I would try to look. I was up in a tree and he was peeing at the base of the tree. I saw that he had pubes, that's when I knew he was becoming too old.
That reminds me of a question. Some people have claimed that the current trend of shaven pubes is somewhat pedophilic. How do they seem to you?
Make it two questions: do you get off on news stories about what other pedophiles have been caught doing?
I can definitely tell when someone shaves their pubes. I am not turned on at all by an adult with no pubic hair. Besides, it's not only the pubes, it's the size and shape of their penis and well as the rest of their body.
Sometimes, but most of the times the news doesn't goo into detail.
Shaving your pubes doesn't make you younger, so this does nothing for me.
No, not really. The news makes every story like that sound as if the person in question was caught violently raping a child, which I doubt is the case a lot of the time.
Pedophiles cannot control their attraction, it's a mental illness, and imo the stigma does more to hurt both pedophiles and children than help anyone. I've run across a number of pedophiles who are intelligent, compassionate people who would never act on their urges.
I greatly disagree that children can consent to sex. They are not developed in the way adult animals (including adult humans) are. Also unlike animals, children are subject to society's views towards sex and sexuality.
I'd say the same deal about zoophilia being a "mental illness" could apply to pedophilia, even though acting on pedophilia isn't ethical. Technically, it applies to every paraphilia. The DSM says any paraphillia is not a disorder unless it's causing the person significant distress and influencing their life and mental health in a negative way. That includes pedophilia. If someone has pedophillic attraction, has come to terms with that, doesn't act on their attraction, and finds healthy ways to cope with it, I wouldn't consider that a disorder or illness.
I think zoophilia and pedophilia are fundamentally different. Some of the reasons reason I am against pedophilia:
We only need to look at the natural world for the best perspective on this.
Sexually mature creatures mate with other sexually mature creatures. It may not be natural for different species to engage in this behavior with each other, but it's stil meeting on common ground.
Whereas sex with any creature, animal or human, who is not sexually developed (and in human creatures this is especially complicated) can be harmful and is widely regarded as a really awful thing to do because it takes away choice. Zoophiles dont take away choice from their partners. At least the good ones.
Human children are vastly complicated creatures, and everything they experiences has a huge impact on their future, which is why we protect them from experiences that can influence their development in an adverse way. This includes sexuality, which they must learn as they go that sex is something they must own, that it comes with great responsibility and must be treated with care or it can cause great harm to their life and others. This is why we don't let our kids have sex with other kids either. Sex can be harmful, and the psychology of sex can have great impact on a developing mind. If two kids want to experiment on their own terms however, it's not nearly as manipulative and selfish as an adult convincing a child to be intimate. This creates a precedent in a child's mind that sex is something that adults take from them, setting them up for a lifetime of unhealthy associations with sex. Maybe not traumatic in best cases, but certainly not healthy.
A big problem tha zoophiles run into is the notion that people have that animals are like children. This is also not a healthy mindset for any kind of pet owner, because it stops looking at animals as adult beings capable of desires, freedoms and mature expressions. Most people who deal with animals on a professional level do not look at animals this way.
I think that is something most of us would like to avoid, though. Manipulating and convincing a child to do something.
but even when not manipulated children dont always make the correct decision.
A scientific study of pedophiles revealed that seeing a kid causes most brains to activate a region that is related to protection and care. In pedophiles, the region for sexual attraction lights up. I.e. there's a physical difference in how their brain is wired.
The child vs animal consent argument is a good one, because small kids and children are likely to have a challenge with understanding consequences, or what is happening, what it means, or how they really feel about it.
Despite that, the thing about animals is that they mature to a certain level and that's it, they're adult animals now who are as capable of thought and consent as they will ever be. Most zoos aren't having sex with child-animals, but with adult-animals.
I think that having sex with a kid is a situation where it is impossible to have an acceptable and reasonable level of consent. I feel badly for pedophiles because they are generally not attracted to adults, so there's no outlet to satisfy a fundamental need that we all experience. They're attracted to something that they can't have.
I view zoosex as questionable, not inherently bad and really depending on the situation. It gets a little complex. Some zoos are attracted to animals that are less expressive or intelligent than others. I believe that acceptable sex requires clear consent and expression (communication) that go together. Some animals pretty much ask for it, they want to have sex with a human, and it's obvious that they are making an invitation. When it's obviously in the interest of the animal, I see no argument against it.
Same for homosexuals and heterosexuals.
Sorry to nitpick just a little bit but I would like to specify where you say ", so there's no outlet to satisfy a fundamental need that we all experience" I would not say this is true necessarily, at least not for all. Celibates and most asexuals are pretty happy without sex. It is possible to be happy without sex, just not as easy for some (or most) as it is for others.
Anyway sorry to be kind of nit picky there. When people assume everybody wants/needs to have sex to complete the human experience it just bugs me.
Adult animals are not equivalent to human children for purposes of sexual consent.
A child may really want to do something, and say so, but that's not informed consent because kids can't be trusted to make informed decisions. Children are idiots, and I say this as a former child. And what happens to you at that age can medically and psychologically fuck you up for life, which is why children need carers to protect them by sometimes overriding their wishes. As a child you're not capable of assessing the long-term effects of your choices on your own development, so informed consent is simply impossible. And an adult who indulges a child's harmful decisions is guilty of abuse.
Animals also can't assess the long-term health effects of their choices, and so domestic pets also need responsible guardians to make decisions for them. BUT there isn't anywhere near the potential for harm in permitting them to indulge their sexual desires. They are more capable of informed consent, not because they have more information but because there are less dangers that they need to know about. Sexual activity is 100% medically advisable for intact adults, and having a "perverse" sexuality doesn't pose any psychological danger because they're not members of human society.
As a responsible adult interacting with a being who isn't capable of fully evaluating consequences, your moral duty is to ensure that:
they enjoy it at the time - otherwise you're directly abusing them; (unless there is some greater issue involved, like painful treatment in medical necessity)
it doesn't directly cause consequences that they won't like - otherwise you're enabling them in self-destructive behaviour.
We're all in agreement on the first point ITT. On the second point, I argue that zoophiles are a million times better at it than paedophiles: A consenting child in a sexual relationship with an adult who enjoys it at the time still can (and I think most likely will) be harmed, because this is a corruption of their physical and psychosocial development toward sexual maturity. They'll soon become an adult whose libido, sexuality and ability to form human relationships has been perverted. A consenting adult animal in a sexual relationship with a human who enjoys it at the time won't necessarily be harmed - they've already developed into an adult, so the only "corruption" they have to fear is becoming sapiosexual, which doesn't matter since the concept of sexual perversity is foreign to them.
Here's something I never thought I'd bring up, but, here we are anyways. My first sexual experience was with my cousin at a very young age. I don't know exactly how old we were, but it was young enough for the event to be a very vague memory, and we were undoubtedly below the legal age of consent where it happened.
It might have effected things between me and her. We might have become more distant because of the sheer awkwardness of not knowing how to handle that type of adult thing, and that might be why we don't keep in touch these days. Really though, I believe it has much more to do with the fact that we've never lived on the same continent, and so we were never especially close to begin with.
As for how it's effected me in life, well, I don't believe it has. Sure, I'm not attracted to humans, but that was more of a recent change in attitude than a lifelong struggle. In general I'm quite content with the way things have been going, and I've heard that she's been doing well too. Maybe it would be different if either of us were significantly older, or if it happened more than once, or if we had been caught. But based on this one experience, I can say that under certain circumstances (I wouldn't dare speculate as to the extent) children are capable of having sex with no major consequences.
So my view on pedophilia is this; as a mindset it's perfectly acceptable, and under very considerate circumstances, the practice could be harmless (Relative to adult relations anyways, which aren't without their complexities). It's not for me, and I maintain that it is distinct from zoophilia, but pedophilia does have my tentative support.
Interesting to hear. Do you think you would have the same view if your cousin had been older than you?
Like I said, I honestly have no way of knowing. And at any rate, it's a loaded question; if she were significantly older, then I doubt she would have pursued anything with me in the first place.
I'll play along though. If she had been older, and if she still felt inclined to do something with /u/AliasHerPrepubescentCousinFromAmerica, I doubt that she would have been malicious about it. She's a very compassionate person, and she would probably end it the moment she felt that something was off. The only trouble is, that's not always something you realize until it's already too late, and children can be quite intimidated by adults.
If that experience had been a traumatic one instead of a facepalmy one, then I don't think I would hold the same view towards pedophilia, since that experience is the only evidence I have to prove that things can turn out well. But as for whether or not it would have been any more traumatic if she were older, I just can't say.
Coming to terms with my zooness gave me a different perspective on what I was told growing up: that pedophiles were the worst people on earth. I can see now that In reality you guys are just the same as I am, but obviously view kiddos differently than I do.
Its kinda funny. people love to paint us as these sicko animal/child abusers who just have that evil look and are bad people in general, but in reality we're the cashiers, engineers and whatever else that people talk to on a daily basis without thinking twice about our sexuality.
I feel bad for the pedos. having the same urges I do towards dogs but having to suppress it must be difficult. At least I can look forward to hving a relationship with a dog, I'm guessing a large number of pedos go their whole life without having that kind of bond :/
I dont agree that any kind of adult/child relationships dont harm the child. like the other guy says, children are idiots, and Its our job as sensible (heh) adults to know what is good and bad for them. We can do that because we have a shitton more life experience and actually know whats good and bad for them at that age.
Well firstly, I'd ask what do you mean by pedophilia? For some people, it's "under the age of consent"… but that varies from 12 to 21. For other people it's "pre-puberty".
The first time I was curious about sex was probably around the age of 9, but that was just a from reading a sex education book that had been conveniently left out for me to read. This was well before my growth spurt, and if an adult had done anything with me at that age, I believe I would have been injured just from the size difference.
So, physical size difference is a concern with regard to your interests. It can be a concern for us too, given how diverse our interests are, but I'm glad to say that after meeting something like a hundred zoos it's quite clear we care about animal welfare.
The other problem is "consent". I think this comes in three parts for us, and four for you:
"Do they, with agency, choose to have sex with us?" — this applies to both of us. From my own memories as a kid, I can believe in principle in some minors doing this. Having been literally knocked over by a horny dog who pinned me down and humped me, even if I was fully clothed at the time, I definitely believe this is possible for dogs.
"Do they understand the risks?" — this also applies to both of us. For you this depends both on sex education, and on "thinking with the wrong head". For us, well, we can't educate the animals, but we can educate ourselves, although it needs quite a different sex education (zoonoses are rare but surprising, but what about the inverse? Also the physiology is very different, and we have no risks of pregnancy). Unfortunately, in many cases, animals who have sex with humans also face the risk of being put down by the state if the human is caught. This is not inherent to the act, but it's worth acknowledging.
"Can they leave the relationship at any time?" — the easiest one for you (if I ignore incest), and the hardest for us. Wild animals can leave without difficulty, but pets? One of the most thoughtful arguments I've heard of against zoophilia came from someone who believed that all human interactions with non-humans were unethical, including pet ownership. I still don't have an answer for them.
"Will they regret this later?" — right now this looks like it's just your problem, as everyone I've talked to says humans are the only species capable of feeling this (that said, I fully expect some species will be shown to have this in my lifetime). Plenty of humans regret the first sex they've had, myself included, but there is a fear that the stigma may be worse for kids who do anything with adults.
My personal opinion is that the age of consent should be related to the quality of sex education; the better the sex education, the lower the age of consent could reasonably be.
Technically, pedophilia is the attraction to prepubescent children, generally >=12. I know it generally gets tossed around for anyone trying to get with people below the age of consent, but there are other names for that. Hebephilia is the attraction to pubescent children, 11-14, and Ephebophilia is the attraction to adolescents, 15-19.
Full on penetrative sex is obviously going to hurt a large majority of kids. For that reason, I don't think it is something your average pedophile is looking to do. Sure, it sounds as good to us as it does to people with any other attraction, but there are other things to do without hurting the kid, and that is the priority.
No the feeling isn't mutual. However I also know that we cannot help what we are attracted to or not attracted to. That being said i cannot judge one what they are attracted to I believe it's ok for you to look at lolicon, However extremely not ok to have a relationship with a child or vew child photography.
I'll accept anyone except those that wish me harm. I don't care what people do in their own personal lives
I don't talk about it as much or really at all but honestly I am not against pedophilia and I respect and have compassion for pedophiles. Why? Because I once was a child and been exposed to sexual things much like other people I talked to at a very young age, some of those people even had sex, my ex boyfriend told me that he lost his virginity at the age of 6. And I'm pretty sure I can consent and have a mutual and positive experience with a older male if I wanted to. And I'm pretty sure that pedophilia acts existed in the past and still now today in other countries/societies and was/is accepted as well as zoophilia and necrophilia.
I haven't really looked much into pedophilia but I think there is a more deeper and meaningful back-story into the subject that I believe people are missing. This is a subject I wish I was more knowledge on because I feel like the whole attitude with the so called, 'child molesters', is still a solid black and white argument with no real proof (in my mind) that can otherwise get me to believe that it shouldn't be accepted.
Sex to me is just another way to show love and respect to someone, like a hug or a pat on the back. So sex with a child for me should be seen as another way to express love to that child just like a father and their daughter.
In child literature class in college we discussed about the guy who made Alice and Wonderland. There are hints that he might've been a pedophile and that he felt much happier around children and had a positive and loving relationship with the girl 'Alice' that he based his story around. When the class went on making their rude jokes and 'eww' comments I felt sad for the guy once I heard that the family of Alice didn't allow him to go see her anymore (It might have been because of that).