Thoughts (self.zoophilia)
submitted 2015-04-22 18:43:09 by ursusem
The opposition tends to say that animals can't consent to having sex with humans. Does the opposition believe that non-human animals can consent to having sex with other non-human animals (whether they be of the same species or different species [which sometimes happens in nature])? If so, why can't they also consent to sex with a human? Why does the species of an animal make any difference?
It's because many people (at least in the Western world) traditionally believe there are two sets of animals, 1. humans and 2. Non-Humans. Each group can mingle within their own group (ie a horse and a donkey mating), but cross group mingling is frowned upon.
Is there any legitimate reason why the cross group mingling should be frowned upon?
Nope. Especially as the groups do not have very clear boundaries.
Here's a respected figure explaining the sound logic of the mainstream attitude.
Made it through that thinking it was written by some relevant person, only to find out you pulled the Hitler card!
Before I facepalmed however I was going to say that the above is flawed due to the writers assumption that all cross-species intercourse is between a male and female resulting in offspring. What about sex that's just for "fun," or male-male sex etc.?
But since that was written by Hitler my comment is a waste of effort. Nobody in their right mind would, or indeed should, take the quote as anything but a sick man's flawed excuse for genocide.
Of course, he was wrong about all that. Anyone with a dog and cat has probably seen the dog try to mate with the cat, many many many times. Right? There's zebras, horses, mules... all mate with each other. Plenty of examples.
Bible, and bible thumping.
Well, I often say that they aren't concerned about consent, they are concerned about the sex.
Edit: Sorry, the they I was referring to is the opposition who is concerned about the sex and seldom about the animals welfare.
Although I do believe consent is a thing in animals, after all they can say no, so respecting those boundaries is necessary to be ethical or in my mind even worth knowing. I don't find it a compelling argument in the society we are in when those bound rays mean nothing until it comes to sex.
Chickens are especially rape-y I would say
If animals "aren't concerned about consent" then why is the position that "they can't consent" even a legitimate argument towards criminalizing bestiality?
Seems to me we shouldn't be caring about consent (at least not all that much) if the language of non-human animals amounts to only what can be communicated through body language alone.
You could argue existence as a non-human animal inevitably involves you getting "raped" in your life. I think rape is more or less a strictly human concept. I don't know if animals can even experience it.
I would expect that they can. I have no reason to assume humans are unique in any single regard until shown otherwise, just as I have no reason to assume I think in a unique way amongst humans until shown otherwise.
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Nudity =/= rape or even sexuality,also the they I was referring to wax the opposition, I will edit my original comment.
lol I realized that not long after I posted!
Obviously it would never be right to restrain the animals
An animal may be able to convey a no but they can't say no. For whatever reason.
I believe that those who are against bestiality are against it on the basis of concern for the animal's welfare because they make the assumption that animals probably don't want to have sex with humans and also an animal could never verbally confirm that they want to engage in that behavior. So the opposition is concerned that the animals do not really want to do bestiality.
The opposition are likely in two groups: 1) "it's against the natural order", 2) "it's non-consensual".
The old sodomy laws were in the first category, the new battles are ostensibly on the second, but I have this niggling feeling that we've been subject to a propaganda war by the first who pretend it's the second.
↑ This. Absolutely this.
I think you give them FAR too much credit. They are not concerned when the animal doesn't want to train, dressup, get squeezed, and go to great efforts to remove sexual organs to reduce "inappropriate behaviour". There are some, very few in my experience, who are genuinely concerned about animals, and most of them are actually vegan. Do you truly think that the opposition is concerned with what an animal wants and not what we do? If so, please explain Spain where stabbing a bull repeatedly with steel spears and swords was not made illegal(also certain animal fighting dogs and cocks) but slipping it a penis was made illegal just recently?
If you wanted to hold animals up to a human standard(ie they must speak), quit changing the standard when it comes only to sex. On a personal note I am finding it pretty obvious that you've never listened to an animal, while they don't use words, they say no in no uncertain terms. If the argument is that because some humans don't listen to them, no humans should have access, then I'd love to see that applied to heterosexuals too, because rape does happen intraspecies.
Anyone who has raised animals know... violent rape is pretty common in the animal kingdom. I don't mean raised like, "Well my mom had two dogs and a cat." I mean raised like 20+ birds, 20+ dogs, etc.
Watch how they court each other. The males are trying for rape. When the female is finally driven to exhaustion, they consummate, and then they're happy together.
There's times when the female really does consent, but that isn't very often. That is the exception, not the rule of nature.
This!! This is why I actually think it is essentially stupid to "go after" zoophiles and try to punish zoophiles. Rape is just a natural part of life for most (probably all) "lower" animals. I didn't write the rules don't shoot the messenger of truth.
Because of this nature of animals we really shouldn't care AT ALL if a human has sex with a non-human animal under the guise of a concern for an animal's welfare.
However if a human causes physical DAMAGE to a non-human through sex or through any other manner that human should be subject to animal cruelty laws.
A more interesting question to ask might be if all animals have a right to mate, and not have their sexual organs not gutted out. What we already do (as standard practice) is already barbaric, and is worse than actually helping an animal to get off once in a while.
That's true.