Some unfortunate comparisons with children again... All in all nothing very surprising.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-10-13 23:39:38
I read the whole thing but I didn't see dogs being compared with children?
zoozooz 1 point on 2015-10-14 06:11:31
It's the implication:
Many still believe that one must use one word for every thing. But I talk to my dogs I would talk to a child and it works just fine.
because they are mentally similar to a child
Children's vocabulary developed for talking nuanced with them. Says only "sit" and "lie" so they do not learn more than that.
because dogs are like children they can learn more
ursusem 2 points on 2015-10-14 06:36:30
Maybe they are implying that "animals are like children" but I think they could be saying that animals may have the ability to understand a lot more of human spoken language than we were expecting them to understand. So therefore, it may be possible to "teach" them our form of language if we were to get them as puppies and spoke to them the same way we speak to human babies/toddlers and effectively teach them a lot of the nuances of the human language- rather than just giving them one word reactionary commands which would cause them to do some type of trick. In the past, we haven't expected much from the mental capacity of beasts because they are not human they don't talk and since they don't talk we expect them to not have the mental ability to grasp any aspect of language at all... so we've never bothered with connecting the dots with them in that sense.
HeartBeatOfTheBeastHoof and Claw 1 point on 2015-10-13 22:35:12
A decent article on canine intelligence.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-10-13 23:23:21
I think dogs actually seem mean for some reason- usually when I'm around them I feel like they are difficult to trust. I feel like house cats are easy to get along with on the flip side. Cats usually are very friendly, I find. I don't understand why everyone loves dogs so much. I wish I could understand it.
syzithryxi like cookies 1 point on 2015-10-14 00:50:31
You are aware that most people see it exactly the other way around, right?
ursusem 2 points on 2015-10-14 02:49:16
I guess that appears to be the truth but I don't understand it.
Lefthandedsock 1 point on 2015-10-14 02:29:22
Dogs seem... mean? I don't understand what could give you that impression.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-10-14 02:42:24
They just bark at me, their voices sound angry, they seem angry at me. Like what did I do? A cat always smiles at me and treats me good. All cats love me. Recently my uncle was showing me his little dog. I brought my face to the dog's face (I was just trying to socialize) and the dog seemed unusually interested (hard to explain) I didn't feel it was friendly and pulled away at that point. It's hard to describe a creature that can't "talk" its feelings.
horse_account -1 points on 2015-10-14 03:10:15
They attack people and kill kids. If the people or kids are running wrong, it activates their prey-killing instincts and they try to kill them. They shouldn't be walked around and let loose around people, especially kids. They should be considered dangerous like farm animals such as pigs, horses, cows, and so on.
Lefthandedsock 1 point on 2015-10-14 03:37:28
You've been so affected by the media. Dogs don't just try to kill people unless they've been trained to do so by awful people. They've been bred for tens of thousands of years to be good companions for humans, and it's been extremely successful.
They are absolutely not the same type of animals as farm animals. Especially not dogs who have been raised with people, which account for pretty much ever one you'll meet.
ursusem 2 points on 2015-10-14 03:48:41
Then why are cats so much friendlier than them?
Lefthandedsock 1 point on 2015-10-14 04:10:49
They have an incessant urge to rub their scent on people, if that's what you see as friendliness.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-10-14 04:20:05
Having an incessant urge to rub on someone means you like them. That's way better than some dog acting angry toward you. Mean old dogs.
Lefthandedsock 1 point on 2015-10-14 04:23:40
I'm not sure I should even be arguing with you. You write with the voice of a child and can't understand that cats rub to spread scent. It's weirding me out.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-10-14 04:28:26
I know that they rub to "spread their scent" but the point of spreading their scent is because they are saying that they like you- they are claiming you as theirs.
Lefthandedsock 2 points on 2015-10-14 04:37:45
Yeah, they want to claim you as theirs. Just like they want to claim that chair leg and the side of the cabinets. Oh, and the stairs too. Might as well claim the other animal that feeds me as well.
I'm sure cats can be friendly, but dogs actively want to make you happy from my experience. Especially your own dogs. They want to sniff new people and love being pet, but they'll go out of their way to brighten your day even if it doesn't benefit them at all.
My dog for example; Sometimes I'm certain he would rather be laying at the foot of my bed, but he knows I like to be close with him. So he stays with me out of loyalty. This is what dogs do. They live to please.
I haven't experienced this with cats. If they don't want to do something, they will not do it. There's no empathy with cats. And I don't like that thing they do when they lay on my lap and knead me with their claws. It's a bit painful.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-10-14 05:05:03
Don't the dogs know that it isn't very nice to bark at somebody? I just don't get them!
Lefthandedsock 2 points on 2015-10-14 05:12:58
They're just excited to meet new people. But they can also be protective of their owner's property. That's the type of companion they are. Cats aren't interested in protecting people or property, so they won't try to do anything.
If you let a barking dog sniff you, they'll quiet down. They're just unsure of you unless their owner is with them, in which case they'll pay attention to his or her body language and react accordingly.
The majority of dogs aren't even that territorial, though. Frankly, you could walk into most people's houses or property and the dog would just want to be pet. Mine certainly would. They bark until someone is near enough, and then they want pets.
ursusem 0 points on 2015-10-14 05:41:51
They're so aggressive. Aren't you afraid they will bite you?
Lefthandedsock 3 points on 2015-10-14 05:56:01
No. They're not aggressive. Where are you even getting this?
Dogs actually do things besides sleep under a couch all day, but they're not aggressive. In fact, most dogs have a high degree of self control when it comes to being aggressive with humans. It takes so much to upset a dog, and even then they'll control themselves.
My dog acts as though he literally doesn't know how to bite. This would undoubtedly scare you, but I can play with my dog and get him so wound up that he's growling (play growling, mind you) and baring his teeth, but he will not bite.
I don't think I could do anything to him that would cause him to bite, because he's never aggressive at all. He just plays like he is. Cats will do this amongst each other, as will most animals. They play fight, but they won't hurt one another.
The majority of dogs are like this. It takes so much effort to even get them to the point of play growling. And even then, they're not being aggressive and they won't harm you. Of course, you don't do this with strange dogs, just like you don't immediately rub a strange cat's belly, because he might claw the shit out of you.
There's another difference between cats and dogs. It takes no effort to piss off a cat. They're unpredictable and some of them will scratch for no reason. Dogs just don't do that. They have self control.
ursusem 0 points on 2015-10-14 06:17:41
I've never been hurt by a cat but I have been bit hard by a dog once when I was a child. I guess that dog didn't have "self control." My pet cat when I was little, I would always play with her like how cats play with each other. She would be laying down in front of me and I'd attack her belly with my fingers and she would bat at me with her paw (our cats were always declawed in the front..) she would put her mouth around my hand but never bite down. And it was always fun to play that way.
Soveee 5 points on 2015-10-14 04:41:06
You probably just don't know how to read their body language or how to communicate to them with your body language. Also, a lot of dogs love their family but aren't crazy about strangers. Some love strangers. Maybe you just haven't met the right dogs.
ursusem 0 points on 2015-10-14 04:52:55
They scare me
Lefthandedsock 2 points on 2015-10-14 05:02:22
If you met my dog, you would not be scared. I'm certain of it.
He's a corgi. They might be the least threatening things on earth.
ursusem -1 points on 2015-10-14 05:16:50
...I would probably be afraid of that dog. My aunt has a dog that is exactly like a cat- it never barks. It is this little one that is very gentle acting and doesn't seem to have any sort of problem with me. I think it's a basenji. I am comfortable around that one
Lefthandedsock 3 points on 2015-10-14 05:19:36
Just look into his eyes. He's full of love, lol.
ursusem -1 points on 2015-10-14 05:32:18
They often look attractive- but then I remember that they are dogs psychologically. And I never know what kind of angry thing they are going to express. Like in this vid.. at 1:19 in, why does the dog have to growl?! And then at 1:41 the puppy sounds like it has an angry voice when it barks! What's with all the anger? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGy6tu6716w
Lefthandedsock 6 points on 2015-10-14 05:40:18
Neither of those are even slightly angry. The first one is just expressing his excitement for food. We speak, we get excited for food. "I hope dinner is ready soon, I'm hungry!" Dogs do the same thing.
The puppy was just playing with his toy. Dogs make sounds when they play. They're not angry. Not even a little bit.
Dogs are just more complex than cats, man. That's probably why zoophiles tend to like dogs. They share a lot of our traits.
ursusem -2 points on 2015-10-14 05:51:38
Cats have more brain cells than dogs. There have been cases in the news where cats have protected their human family members as well.
Lefthandedsock 5 points on 2015-10-14 05:59:40
\*sigh*
Okay, I'm going to sleep. Have a good time with your cats.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-10-14 06:01:43
I only have one
Lefthandedsock 1 point on 2015-10-14 06:05:02
Okay. Just know that I'm not trying to convince you that cats are bad, but that dogs are good. Or maybe better. Idk. Goodnight.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-10-14 06:26:17
Probably all animals are really great in their own ways but for some reason I feel uneasy about canines.
furvert_tailEquine, large canid 3 points on 2015-10-14 11:19:29
Aww. Those paws. I would pet and play fetch for hours with that one.
SusitarCanidae 1 point on 2015-10-14 07:57:56
Strangely, even though I'm nowadays attracted to dogs, and I'm a wolf therian, I still had a quite long phase when I was nervous around dogs. Not all dogs. The extremely calm and gentle ones were okay. But if it was an unfamiliar dog, and especially if it was a terrier-type, I was afraid of it.
This was because when I was 6, a young Jack Russel had chased me. It just wanted to play, but I didn't understand that and got frightened.
My fear subsided once I got to know more gentle dogs with clear body language. Was afraid of my neighbor's GSD until she died of old age though, but that dog did have aggression problems and had bit other dogs in the past.
Nowix 7 points on 2015-10-14 09:55:13
I'm like that with horses. I don't understand their body language so to me they always act unpredictable. It's always scary to be standing next to them. However, I am very well aware that it doesn't make all horses scary and unpredictable animals. It's simply me that has trouble reading them. The horses are just doing fine, and luckily there are plenty of people who do understand them and therefore have a closer connection with them. I have the same, but with dogs.
Everyone has their own set of animals they have an instant connection with, and a whole range of animals they don't. But that doesn't make these animals mean, evil, or more scary... Nor are the people who do love them more strange than others.
furvert_tailEquine, large canid 2 points on 2015-10-14 11:25:30
I'm the same. I fancy horses, but I'm also afraid of them. They act so gently, I'm not even sure why I'm afraid. Their size, perhaps?
Baaxten 1 point on 2015-10-14 16:25:36
Probably the size.
I understand dogs almost completely, but because of my very, very limited experience with horses I know next to nothing about their behaviour. I don't feel nervous towards them specifically, I just don't trust myself to interpret their body language correctly.
SusitarCanidae 4 points on 2015-10-14 08:08:02
Perhaps my favorite parts, as a zoo who often gets into online discussions, are in the beginning and the end:
" There's a common idea that you can't know what a dog thinks and feels. But it's actually quite easy to undertand. Science has made great strides and reviewed our earlier expectations about our four-legged friends in the last decade."
and
"The mor the tail wags to the right, the happier the dog is. If it greets its owner, the tail often wags more towards the right. But if it's hesitant, maybe when greeting another dog, the tail wags more to the left."
In research, people know the behaviours of domestic animals pretty well. Yes, even when it comes to mating. Which makes it so glaring when "normal people" claim that we cannot communicate with animals such as dogs or horses, that it's impossible for us to know if it wants to mate or not. They are ignoring volumes and volumes of research and science. I think I'll write another thread about my experience with domestic fowl research, you might be interested in it.
Baaxten 1 point on 2015-10-14 16:14:33
For future reference should an argument against zoophilia crop up here, can you provide links to these volumes?
SusitarCanidae 2 points on 2015-10-14 19:51:29
I could always help with searching for articles. The once I'm talking about were physical books that stood in the research building I spent a summer at. This was 4 years ago, so I no longer remember the titles. But there was black-and-white photo illustrations about how to know when a sow was ready to mate etc.
actuallynotazoophileok, I lied 1 point on 2015-10-14 09:34:53
Sweden does seem pretty progressive in regards to trying understanding animals. It'll be interesting to see what kind of research come out in the future and whether any of it will be applicable to us specifically.
Nowix 2 points on 2015-10-14 10:01:54
Sweden is kinda a weird place in that regard. They also have very very struct rules regarding animal welfare. So much that they are basically shooting themselves in their own foot with it. There is a rule where you are not allowed to leave a dog alone in your house for more than 4 hours... So as a result (at least in the rural areas) lots and lots of dogs are forced to become outside dogs.
They also have rules for the doghouses in these kennels. The minimum size is so big that during the winter the dog cannot heat up the house and will just be cold most of the time.
They are meant to help the animals but as a result lots of people just ignore the rules because it isn't helping at all...
actuallynotazoophileok, I lied 1 point on 2015-10-14 10:31:55
oh, heh, thats a bit weird. Whose job is it to enforce animal welfare? sounds like it would be a ton of hassle if it was the job if the regular police force.
sillamackor 1 point on 2015-10-14 15:25:09
There is a rule where you are not allowed to leave a dog alone in your house for more than 4 hours
I have tried to find a source for this but cant find any. Could it be a myth?
Nowix 1 point on 2015-10-14 17:12:05
This is what I've been told by various people who professionally work with animals in Sweden. So I presume they know their own rules. I have not met anyone who did not complain about these rules...
/r/zoophilia archive
Google translation is mostly readable: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.dn.se%2Finsidan%2Fforskaren-manniskans-basta-van-forstar-mer-an-du-tror%2F&edit-text=
Some unfortunate comparisons with children again... All in all nothing very surprising.
I read the whole thing but I didn't see dogs being compared with children?
It's the implication:
because they are mentally similar to a child
because dogs are like children they can learn more
Maybe they are implying that "animals are like children" but I think they could be saying that animals may have the ability to understand a lot more of human spoken language than we were expecting them to understand. So therefore, it may be possible to "teach" them our form of language if we were to get them as puppies and spoke to them the same way we speak to human babies/toddlers and effectively teach them a lot of the nuances of the human language- rather than just giving them one word reactionary commands which would cause them to do some type of trick. In the past, we haven't expected much from the mental capacity of beasts because they are not human they don't talk and since they don't talk we expect them to not have the mental ability to grasp any aspect of language at all... so we've never bothered with connecting the dots with them in that sense.
A decent article on canine intelligence.
I think dogs actually seem mean for some reason- usually when I'm around them I feel like they are difficult to trust. I feel like house cats are easy to get along with on the flip side. Cats usually are very friendly, I find. I don't understand why everyone loves dogs so much. I wish I could understand it.
You are aware that most people see it exactly the other way around, right?
I guess that appears to be the truth but I don't understand it.
Dogs seem... mean? I don't understand what could give you that impression.
They just bark at me, their voices sound angry, they seem angry at me. Like what did I do? A cat always smiles at me and treats me good. All cats love me. Recently my uncle was showing me his little dog. I brought my face to the dog's face (I was just trying to socialize) and the dog seemed unusually interested (hard to explain) I didn't feel it was friendly and pulled away at that point. It's hard to describe a creature that can't "talk" its feelings.
They attack people and kill kids. If the people or kids are running wrong, it activates their prey-killing instincts and they try to kill them. They shouldn't be walked around and let loose around people, especially kids. They should be considered dangerous like farm animals such as pigs, horses, cows, and so on.
You've been so affected by the media. Dogs don't just try to kill people unless they've been trained to do so by awful people. They've been bred for tens of thousands of years to be good companions for humans, and it's been extremely successful.
They are absolutely not the same type of animals as farm animals. Especially not dogs who have been raised with people, which account for pretty much ever one you'll meet.
Then why are cats so much friendlier than them?
They have an incessant urge to rub their scent on people, if that's what you see as friendliness.
Having an incessant urge to rub on someone means you like them. That's way better than some dog acting angry toward you. Mean old dogs.
I'm not sure I should even be arguing with you. You write with the voice of a child and can't understand that cats rub to spread scent. It's weirding me out.
I know that they rub to "spread their scent" but the point of spreading their scent is because they are saying that they like you- they are claiming you as theirs.
Yeah, they want to claim you as theirs. Just like they want to claim that chair leg and the side of the cabinets. Oh, and the stairs too. Might as well claim the other animal that feeds me as well.
I'm sure cats can be friendly, but dogs actively want to make you happy from my experience. Especially your own dogs. They want to sniff new people and love being pet, but they'll go out of their way to brighten your day even if it doesn't benefit them at all.
My dog for example; Sometimes I'm certain he would rather be laying at the foot of my bed, but he knows I like to be close with him. So he stays with me out of loyalty. This is what dogs do. They live to please.
I haven't experienced this with cats. If they don't want to do something, they will not do it. There's no empathy with cats. And I don't like that thing they do when they lay on my lap and knead me with their claws. It's a bit painful.
Don't the dogs know that it isn't very nice to bark at somebody? I just don't get them!
They're just excited to meet new people. But they can also be protective of their owner's property. That's the type of companion they are. Cats aren't interested in protecting people or property, so they won't try to do anything.
If you let a barking dog sniff you, they'll quiet down. They're just unsure of you unless their owner is with them, in which case they'll pay attention to his or her body language and react accordingly.
The majority of dogs aren't even that territorial, though. Frankly, you could walk into most people's houses or property and the dog would just want to be pet. Mine certainly would. They bark until someone is near enough, and then they want pets.
They're so aggressive. Aren't you afraid they will bite you?
No. They're not aggressive. Where are you even getting this?
Dogs actually do things besides sleep under a couch all day, but they're not aggressive. In fact, most dogs have a high degree of self control when it comes to being aggressive with humans. It takes so much to upset a dog, and even then they'll control themselves.
My dog acts as though he literally doesn't know how to bite. This would undoubtedly scare you, but I can play with my dog and get him so wound up that he's growling (play growling, mind you) and baring his teeth, but he will not bite.
I don't think I could do anything to him that would cause him to bite, because he's never aggressive at all. He just plays like he is. Cats will do this amongst each other, as will most animals. They play fight, but they won't hurt one another.
The majority of dogs are like this. It takes so much effort to even get them to the point of play growling. And even then, they're not being aggressive and they won't harm you. Of course, you don't do this with strange dogs, just like you don't immediately rub a strange cat's belly, because he might claw the shit out of you.
There's another difference between cats and dogs. It takes no effort to piss off a cat. They're unpredictable and some of them will scratch for no reason. Dogs just don't do that. They have self control.
I've never been hurt by a cat but I have been bit hard by a dog once when I was a child. I guess that dog didn't have "self control." My pet cat when I was little, I would always play with her like how cats play with each other. She would be laying down in front of me and I'd attack her belly with my fingers and she would bat at me with her paw (our cats were always declawed in the front..) she would put her mouth around my hand but never bite down. And it was always fun to play that way.
You probably just don't know how to read their body language or how to communicate to them with your body language. Also, a lot of dogs love their family but aren't crazy about strangers. Some love strangers. Maybe you just haven't met the right dogs.
They scare me
If you met my dog, you would not be scared. I'm certain of it.
He's a corgi. They might be the least threatening things on earth.
...I would probably be afraid of that dog. My aunt has a dog that is exactly like a cat- it never barks. It is this little one that is very gentle acting and doesn't seem to have any sort of problem with me. I think it's a basenji. I am comfortable around that one
Just look into his eyes. He's full of love, lol.
They often look attractive- but then I remember that they are dogs psychologically. And I never know what kind of angry thing they are going to express. Like in this vid.. at 1:19 in, why does the dog have to growl?! And then at 1:41 the puppy sounds like it has an angry voice when it barks! What's with all the anger? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rGy6tu6716w
Neither of those are even slightly angry. The first one is just expressing his excitement for food. We speak, we get excited for food. "I hope dinner is ready soon, I'm hungry!" Dogs do the same thing.
The puppy was just playing with his toy. Dogs make sounds when they play. They're not angry. Not even a little bit.
Dogs are just more complex than cats, man. That's probably why zoophiles tend to like dogs. They share a lot of our traits.
Cats have more brain cells than dogs. There have been cases in the news where cats have protected their human family members as well.
\*sigh*
Okay, I'm going to sleep. Have a good time with your cats.
I only have one
Okay. Just know that I'm not trying to convince you that cats are bad, but that dogs are good. Or maybe better. Idk. Goodnight.
Probably all animals are really great in their own ways but for some reason I feel uneasy about canines.
Aww. Those paws. I would pet and play fetch for hours with that one.
Strangely, even though I'm nowadays attracted to dogs, and I'm a wolf therian, I still had a quite long phase when I was nervous around dogs. Not all dogs. The extremely calm and gentle ones were okay. But if it was an unfamiliar dog, and especially if it was a terrier-type, I was afraid of it.
This was because when I was 6, a young Jack Russel had chased me. It just wanted to play, but I didn't understand that and got frightened.
My fear subsided once I got to know more gentle dogs with clear body language. Was afraid of my neighbor's GSD until she died of old age though, but that dog did have aggression problems and had bit other dogs in the past.
I'm like that with horses. I don't understand their body language so to me they always act unpredictable. It's always scary to be standing next to them. However, I am very well aware that it doesn't make all horses scary and unpredictable animals. It's simply me that has trouble reading them. The horses are just doing fine, and luckily there are plenty of people who do understand them and therefore have a closer connection with them. I have the same, but with dogs.
Everyone has their own set of animals they have an instant connection with, and a whole range of animals they don't. But that doesn't make these animals mean, evil, or more scary... Nor are the people who do love them more strange than others.
I'm the same. I fancy horses, but I'm also afraid of them. They act so gently, I'm not even sure why I'm afraid. Their size, perhaps?
Probably the size.
I understand dogs almost completely, but because of my very, very limited experience with horses I know next to nothing about their behaviour. I don't feel nervous towards them specifically, I just don't trust myself to interpret their body language correctly.
Perhaps my favorite parts, as a zoo who often gets into online discussions, are in the beginning and the end: " There's a common idea that you can't know what a dog thinks and feels. But it's actually quite easy to undertand. Science has made great strides and reviewed our earlier expectations about our four-legged friends in the last decade." and "The mor the tail wags to the right, the happier the dog is. If it greets its owner, the tail often wags more towards the right. But if it's hesitant, maybe when greeting another dog, the tail wags more to the left."
In research, people know the behaviours of domestic animals pretty well. Yes, even when it comes to mating. Which makes it so glaring when "normal people" claim that we cannot communicate with animals such as dogs or horses, that it's impossible for us to know if it wants to mate or not. They are ignoring volumes and volumes of research and science. I think I'll write another thread about my experience with domestic fowl research, you might be interested in it.
For future reference should an argument against zoophilia crop up here, can you provide links to these volumes?
I could always help with searching for articles. The once I'm talking about were physical books that stood in the research building I spent a summer at. This was 4 years ago, so I no longer remember the titles. But there was black-and-white photo illustrations about how to know when a sow was ready to mate etc.
Sweden does seem pretty progressive in regards to trying understanding animals. It'll be interesting to see what kind of research come out in the future and whether any of it will be applicable to us specifically.
Sweden is kinda a weird place in that regard. They also have very very struct rules regarding animal welfare. So much that they are basically shooting themselves in their own foot with it. There is a rule where you are not allowed to leave a dog alone in your house for more than 4 hours... So as a result (at least in the rural areas) lots and lots of dogs are forced to become outside dogs.
They also have rules for the doghouses in these kennels. The minimum size is so big that during the winter the dog cannot heat up the house and will just be cold most of the time.
They are meant to help the animals but as a result lots of people just ignore the rules because it isn't helping at all...
oh, heh, thats a bit weird. Whose job is it to enforce animal welfare? sounds like it would be a ton of hassle if it was the job if the regular police force.
I have tried to find a source for this but cant find any. Could it be a myth?
This is what I've been told by various people who professionally work with animals in Sweden. So I presume they know their own rules. I have not met anyone who did not complain about these rules...