Just need to get some stuff off my chest.
People doing their best to bring equal rights for lgbtq people is a wonderful thing.
But there is something bittersweet about it for me. I'm bisexual, so I visit Pride, and I sometimes write in lgbtq groups online. I don't really consider being bi a huge deal, it's just a small part of who I am.
Whenever people in lgbtq contexts say stuff like "Everyone should be able to be themselves!" or "All sexualities are equal!" etc, I feel a bit melancholic. Because I know it's not true.
I face very little problems because of my bisexuality. A couple of friends in middle school told me they thought it was strange. Sometimes the orientation is forgotten in questionnaires about sexuality. Stuff like that. Yet, there are all these networks are ready to help me, if I would ever be mistreated because I'm bi.
When it comes to zoophilia, there is no such support. We have to hide who we are. I understand why, but it still makes me sad. I can't trust people who tell me to be myself. When someone in the Pride parade shouts that all love is equal, I know some of the love I long for is not included in that statement.
And yet, if I ever point out that the lgbtq movement has come so far, has gotten so mainstream... then I'm accused of being spoiled and heteronormative, and silencing the existence of hate crimes. When the truth is that I'm actually comparing to other sexual minorities who have it worse, but I can't really say that. So, "privileged and spoiled" it is then, I guess.
I'm even more fatalistic. I thought about going to an LGBT+ group, but I never did, because I always feel like "what's the point if I still have to be closeted there?"
I don't know if it's relevant, but I got sad when reading http://www.hudsonhubtimes.com/regional/2015/11/19/many-testify-in-support-of-measure-to-expressly-outlaw-bestiality-in-ohio
Here and here are two testimonies in full, one from a detective who investigated 20 bestiality cases and one from an ASPCA.
Imagine if this was about gay rights. There would very likely be gay people testifying against such a proposed law. If organizations and individuals were testifying this kind of bullshit in opposition of gay rights to the senate, there would be definitely a reaction from the LGBT community.
But it's about zoophiles, so nobody from the community dares to show their faces and nobody calls out the bullshit. It's not just the personal support we don't have, it's also the public support that's nonexistent...
So much Bull Shit in that sentence.
It's like in the 50's when some people would straight up equate homosexuality to pedophilia. That's just the way humans are, I guess. Any insane mental gymnastic is excusable when we have to justify hating what we don't understand.
Please don´t generalize. If you take a closer look into it, the accusations quoted by you aren´t half as dumb and BS as we all like to see them. While I participated in BF, I´ve seen more examples of cruelty towards animals than I could imagine. I´ve seen some guy´s porn vid where he raped a cow. The cow had a rope around her neck and was tied to the wall, every defensive movement she made tightened the rope around her neck, strangulating her. The usual comments for such a negative and abusive conduct? "You did her good", "This cunt deserved it" etc... Another one was abusing a mare tied to a post. She clearly showed her discontent several times, but this "hero" just continued... Another incident: A polish stallion owner played the good and genuine zoo in the forum. One day, another user of BF paid him a visit and as soon as he returned home, he logged into BF to unveil that "Mr.GenuineZooHimself" whipped his animals into obedience.Yet another example of cruelty: all the "pro" "zoo" porn where the animal (usually a male horse) is drugged up to the brim. Any sedation given to a horse should be because there are GOOD medical reasons for it, not because you want to shoot porn footage.
You see, there´s a lot more to take into consideration before calling something BS. I know it´s unpleasant, but there´s a grain of truth embedded in these accusations. Want another unpleasant example? In Germany, there is a guy named Janis Bender, a sadist. I bet almost anyone has seen pictures of one of his victims, the famous German shepherd tied up with rope and duct tape, lying on a table. These pictures are used by the antis anytime they want to paint a very dark picture of zoophilia. Of course this is zoosadism/sadism, but Mr Bender refers to himself as a zoo...so how should anyone without the insight into the zoo community be able to tell the difference anyway?
Don´t get into a trench fight here. Try to understand where this BS is coming from. Before you start pointing fingers at those voicing this bullshit, look at our own flaws, faults and mistakes. Trench fights usually don´t help; they won´t gain any ground, but generate a lot of casualities. We as a community are suffering from the same positive prejudices as /u/susitar...not all zoos are nice people. Not all antis are per se bad people. What we need to do is to break up those crusted structures. We need to take a closer look before condemning arguments we dislike because the opposition uses them.
And of course you know that this is a problem with how beastforum is run by the admins and moderators. Their main concern is to get material for their porn sites so they make sure that everyone who posts anything at all is encouraged. It's not for zoophiles and the flaw in the reasoning who use beastforum as an argument is that they do not understand this...
If you testify for the senate you are supposed to be educated on the issues you talk about. Am I supposed to believe the ASPCAs have never heard our side of the story?
Well, the real purpose of BF is porn . You know it, I know it and some others with open eyes know it, too. But for anyone not involved in this "subculture", a whole different image pops up. By reading all the threads, stumbling across the z-word every two lines of text, by the big "tolerance" shown for highly dubious attitudes and acts, any outsider takes for granted that BF is truly a "zoophile" forum. If we like it or not, BF shapes the outward appearance of zoos as the self proclaimed number one forum for animal sex , with the highest user count. Just see it through an outsiders POV and you´ll partially understand why the quted sentence from above isn´t utter bullshit. It all depends on the definition of zoophilia.
" If you testify for the senate you are supposed to be educated on the issues you talk about." Yeah, in a perfect world, maybe. But in the real world, it never is about being educated, it´s about negotiating your own interests. Think about nuclear energy...do you think that any pro lobbyist "forgot" the problem of secure storage of nuclear waste? I bet they all were educated about this big, unsolved issue...so, education is only a tiny part of it, the more important part being personal interest/lobbyism. I´m sure the authorities already heard our side of the story, but it´s a matter of having an open ear to things you don´t like to hear, you know. And the authorities aren´t the only ones turning away from unpopular, unpleasant facts....it´s not only the fault of others, our own community suffers from this ,too.
And you know as well as me, that it doesn't matter if they have these images or not. If they do not have real sexual abuse images, they do not hesitate one second to use any random image they find that looks like it could shock people. Do you think this guy cares about where these images come from and what is depicted on them, as long as it looks gruesome? https://twitter.com/letssavethem22/status/669592933297995776
Sure, I admit that. And for those easily impressed by things they see and read on the internet, this strategy works perfectly fine. Selective perception comes along with prejudice and a simple, drawn picture of "proof" would also do the job for those. But the case of Mr Bender is special; the pictures from his deeds are among those few you can´t wipe away as made up and simly ripped out of context. If I remember it correctly, these pictures of the German shepherd being tortured were the first to back up the antis claims of zoophilia being cruelty.
Which unfortunately includes angry mobs, clueless people, the confirmation-biased, and others groups fundamental to the concept of democracy.
This is actually unfair supposition. The only "news" about zoosexuality is bad news because that's what powers the gossip wagon and that's what sells. It's like watching Fox News and saying "Look what a horrible, violent country America is."
That demographic is less than the tip of an iceberg to the majority of zoos who live downplayed, secret lives. The people you talk about are the fringe, equivalent to the number of heterosexuals who have sex dungeons.
I think it's entirely valid to call out an argument that's bullshit, especially when it's referring to something that makes the very people it's attacking cringe.
If this is meant as a reply to my rant, then I have to say that I´m not dependent or referring to media headlines of "zoophiles" getting caught. My stance is based on insight into BF and other "zoo communities" and the facts I am placing my evaluation on rarely make it to the headlines. I have seen this way too often while I was a member of various communities, too much positive self bias, too much excuses, too much non-zoo behavior disguised as role model zoophilia. People tend to justify their conduct by all means necessary...and I´m not talking about the tiny group of eejits who make it to the front pages, I´m talking about a general tendency to paint a picture of genuinity for others, but deconstructing this picture ASAP when talking open within the community. I really can´t see what exactly is unfair about adressing the black spots within the zoo community; it´s more than necessary to do this, to separate the wannabes from the genuine zoos, the impostors and liars from the few who actually love animals beyond the physical,sexual level. The major problem is that the term zoophile now has become void and meaningless, anyone can call himself that, no matter what he does with animals. As long as there is no "trademark" stopping random people from dropping the z-word, there will be no improvement in public perception.
Literally the entire sentence is bullshit.
I feel your pain, to some extent. Allow me to give a slightly different perspective on roughly the same issue.
For the past few weeks, there have been protests at the University of Missouri and at Yale University over a number of progressive issues, in particular individual perceived incidents of sexism and racism and the failure of the administrations of those universities to adequately deal with them. In such an environment (I have been taking some classes recently), I feel like I'm a part of both extremes of that debate and would be welcome on neither side.
On the one hand, to all the world I seem to be a straight white man. I am, to the students protesting, their oppressor and a force to be removed for no reason other than genetic features over which I have no control. When I hear a student activist yelling about how universities should be safe and comfortable, and intellectual study should be secondary, I feel like my rationalist and empiricist views are being shouted down in favor of pretending that the world around us follows an emotionally driven narrative structure as written by Sylvia Plath or George Orwell.
How sad it is, then, that I cannot take refuge in the "normal" people either, since I really don't feel as they do. I love animals more than people, in some ways, and because of that I have no political quarter from a progressive revolt. If I remain silent about myself, I am the enemy of the protesters because of my privilege and because I disagree with them. If I let them know how I understand oppression, being a member of a tiny minority that can be jailed simply because what they do disgusts most people, then the very same community that rejected me for being too privileged will find new reasons to be my enemy, because the same ideologies that view me as the oppressor of other races would also view me as the oppressor of all domesticated species no matter what I do.
The best explanation I have for this is a simple visual: picture a gauge chart measuring how oppressed someone is (not actually easily measured, but bear with me). On the left is very little oppression (in the U.S., straight white male with a lot of money and power, for example). On the right is a whole lot of oppression (in the U.S., Hispanic lesbian factory worker with a missing leg on welfare). I feel like if such an "oppression meter" were used with me, the needle would be hanging down below the chart, and it would be impossible to tell if I'm not at all oppressed or the most wretched creature in society.
That gauge chart is similar to my experiences. Now, I would consider myself leaning a lot of the left politically, and since I'm female, not straight and grew up in the working class, it's not like people view me as completely privileged. For me, I guess the gauge chart would have to describe how progressive I am, rather than how oppressed. I've gone the full circle from socialist feminist ("good" in certain contexts), to a horrible oppressive pervert since I also defend zoophiles and sex workers. I've been called both "naïve" and "cold-hearted". I guess no matter what you do, haters gonna hate.
I'm also seriously annoyed with how some European activists are starting to import ideas from American social justice, some of which aren't relevant to an European context. But that's another discussion...
You´re suffering from positive prejudice here. It may be positive, but still it is nothing more than a prejudice that homosexuals/LGBTWHATEVER per se have to be more "tolerant".
May I remind you that the most frequent anti argument against gay liberation brought up by the conservatives was the "opening Pandora´s box" argument. "Once we allow this gay stuff, what will be next those pervos come up with? Marrying animals?"....I´m sure this resonates in some LGBT people´s minds and by distancing themselves from us, denying any support, they only protect the progress they have made since the eighties.I can understand the LGBT folks don´t want to prove the conservatives right in the end.
It´s very common amongst zoos/beasties to share the illusion to be part of the LGBT movement. Well, we´re NOT. We never were. Their fight isn´t ours. Our fight isn´t theirs.
The expectation that people who themselves have been subject to prejudice and discrimination ought to be more accepting of others who are subject to prejudice and discrimination isn't completely irrational. It probably is that way to some degree, but I think we just expect too much...
Ultra conservatives will hate lgbt people no matter what they do or endorse. There's no reason to try to placate those people.
I would also add it's not just about sexuality...
As probably some of you on this lovely subreddit know, I'm a therian. I feel like I was supposed to be born as as a non-human animal (wolf, specifically). But I can't be open about this irl or on facebook, I've told some friends and family, but... When I read about trans issues, I sometimes get this jealousy. It's horrible, because they have their problems too, but at least it's illegal to discriminate against transsexuals and they can actually seek treatment to get a body more similar to their ideal. I can't do that. And I have to hold my tongue, because for them, I look like the typical cis woman, I can't possibly understand how it's like to not be treated as your real self etc... and when it comes to gender, it's true, I don't really get it (men and woman are so similar! Why the big deal?). But I know what it's like to be unhappy about one's body, I know what it's like to keep secrets.
At least when it comes to species identity, I can be more open about in the bdsm community (which I'm also a part of). But even there, I can't talk about zoophilia. Not that I've ever tried, but I don't think it would be a good idea at all.
Reading your lament I have to ask why the heck it is so goddamn important for you that other humans know your transspecies personality? What are you really craving by searching for their approval? Don´t get me wrong, I do know exactly what it feels like to wear a human shell hiding what you really are, but I never was dependent on humans assuring me in my "alternate personality". If you really are an animal in a human body, the only ones you should seek approval from is your true species, anything else is nothing more than cosplay/roleplay. I don´t need a fursuit, a mask or all the other bullshit to know who I am. I feel it, 24/7. You know, it´s called I-dentity, not Them-dentity. Again, don´t get me wrong, I absolutely would undergo surgery if that was a possibility and even researched for awhile after I broke my tailbone in 2001 and am able to move it a bit by muscular contractions. I´d absolutely love to have a tail and would even take almost any risk involved to get a genuine implant. But on the other hand I know that this is only my ego and wouldn´t make me more horse than I already am. I´m a horse trapped in a human body; I know it, the horses I deal with quickly recognize it and that is anything I really need. I don´t care if the bipedals know it, it doesn´t matter anyways. I am what I am, this isn´t a role I play, this isn´t some spare time activity I can switch off if it becomes too complicated or turns my life into untter annoyance because of the entity living inside of me. Unlike you,I do NOT want people to know what I am. My fellow horsemen and -women already have strange feelings towards me when they see me interacting with horses and I can´t count the incidents where I´ve been called "half horse" anymore. It´s MY species that counts and I´m totally okay if horses are the only ones to realize that one of their own kind walks among the bipedals. It´s hard enough already to dream as a horse, waking up from it and falling into a glass door because the digitigrade walk isn´t really compatible with human legs. It´s hard to constantly muzzle the impulse to whinny, snort and whicker. It´s hard to deal with the constant discrepancy between your body and mind. I couldn´t care less about humans not seeing my true identity, for self esteem, for reassuring my fantasies or anything. It´s real; just throw me into a herd of horses completely unknown to me and I swear I immediately will be integrated and seen as a fellow horse. Sometimes I wish being that way wouldn´t make my life as a zoophile even more complicated than it already is, but that seems to be the way I am born. I learned to be content with it, cherish that only the more sensitive humans get a slight glimpse of the truth and , hey, having hooves makes it extremely difficult to dial up for the vet when my mare or any other horse has a colic. ;)
You really should seek confirmation from those whose judgement actually counts...your own species. If ou feel you´re a wolf, well, then seek contact to wolves. If you really are what you insist on being, any individual of your own species will react to that immediately. If not, well, then you may be one of those many whose mind plays tricks on them, having watched too many anthropomorphic cartoon characters in their childhood.
I know, I´m being an asshole again, but the truth is that there´s only one way to ensure your "therianism" isn´t bogus....and it´s not searching for approval from humans. Let your species decide if you really are one of them. Having the certainty from your own species is priceless and you could not care less if humans see you as a "wolf in a human body" or not once having passed this litmus test.
I see where you're coming from, but there are a couple of things I think you should consider.
First, your experiences and desires are different from OP's, because ultimately you are both different. You're privileged enough to be able to work amongst your own species, who are used to being around humans. It would be very difficult for the OP to start working with Wolves and to get to know them intimately.
Second, humans tend to have different levels of social needs. Introversion and extroversion are inherent. While you might be introverted enough where interacting with horses is sufficient for your needs, perhaps the OP needs more social interaction which can only be fulfilled through human dialogue.
I suppose my issue with your post is that it seems to be giving advice, when it's really just your experience. That's totally valid because it gives more perspective, but please realize that everyone is different and has differing needs.
I completely agree on your comment and apologize if my post came across other than solely giving my opinion and experiences.
But a few things remain to be said: I learned that having an animal presence inside you will REPLACE your human presence over time, as you can´t be both. Sticking to your human needs such as reassurance isn´t a matter of intro- vs. extrovertedness, for me it is an indicator that the animal persona serves as an addon placed on top of the human persona and thus is some form of ego play. An animal spirit inside of you will change you inevitably, it will eat you up and spit you out reborn into another, new life.Clinging to your human existence and all it includes will hinder the success of this transformation process. This isn´t something that´s meant to be "user friendly", it´s something that demands dedication,devotion and acceptance of loss, pain and sufferance during the process. Oftentimes, the person going through this shamanistic transpersonalisation process will have to endure several psychological and even physical crises...for every step you make towards your animal side, you´ll have to make one away from your human side. As you´ve said, this is just my humble opinion. But if /u/Susitar can someday get over her feelings of being insulted by me, she´ll eventually may notice the value of my given advice. Instead of just standing there and complaining about how hard it is to live with the special state of mind someone experiences when he/she is "that way", she rather should be accepting her destiny and start embarking on this journey towards her real self by researching methods of transpersonalisation helping her to reach her true self. If it truly is in her. If you really are what you say, there should be no need to speak to humans about it. Your presence as an animal will speak loud and clear; to humans as well as to your own species. It does not depend on differing needs, me being more introverted etc. It depends on the readiness to go all the way...picking out the raisins of both worlds ( "I´m an animal inside, but need human support badly" ) won´t work out. It depends on dedication and your willingness to live your life according to what is inside you...if you claim to be a wolf, then it should be your ultimate goal to become one of those wolf people giving their entire life breeding and living with those animals and not trying to tell people how unreachable these animals are for you. If it is your destiny, then you should pursue it regardless of other , more mundane human needs like acceptance. Reminder: only MY personal opinion and anyone is welcome to discard it as bullshit as he/she likes
Yes, you are being an asshole. Your feelings are not my feelings. I can totally accept that most therians (it's called therianthropy, btw, -ism implies ideology) do not want to be open about it.
But sometimes I just want to be able to share with friends etc about those struggles you mention. How wrong my body feels, how confusing some instincts can be.
And eh, I don't believe species identity is magic. So I don't think real animals would necessarily notice, unless it's from them picking up body language. It's in my head, it's in your head too. Doesn't make it less important for us as individuals. I believe it is similar to transgender, and it's not like I can magically pick up whether or not someone in a male body is "truly" a woman, just because I'm a woman.
Also, you make it sound like it's no problem just going into the woods, finding a wild wolf pack and 'being accepted'. Even if they would somehow ~magically~ know I'm a wolf, despite smelling like a human and looking like a human, they are territorial animals and would not accept me. Dogs are sometimes confused about me (not that they treat me as a dog either), but whatever, I enjoy spending time with them anyway.
I am not talking about wanting some fucking costume. I am talking about not having to keep secrets. I am a very honest person, and every time I actively have to hide something, it hurts. I worry that if word came out that I'm a zoo, it would destroy my career. I worry that if word came out that I'm one of those wackos who "believe they are an animal", people would think I'm untrustworthy, delusional. Some people, like you I guess, are more private. They don't mind having secrets, in fact, they might not want to discuss private matters at all with other people. I'm not like that. I hate small talk, I love to talk about the things that really matter to people.
tl;dr: Just because you feel one way about this, doesn't mean everyone else has to feel the same.
I sometimes enjoy being this asshole, pulling people out of their comfort zone, you know...^^ Real animals WILL take notice, there´s nothing magical about that. If they don´t, then it really is existent only in your head, only playing a role. And don´t tell me about "feelings" one has, a method actor uses exactly the same method to reach a higher connection to the character he plays. Still, he´s an actor. The fact that you doubt wolves would recognize you as one of them shows that you´re not what you say. If you´re a wolf, it would be natural for you to have them around you. If they don´t notice, what is this crap all about then? Maybe your internal wolf is only a projection of your need for "animalistic" sexuality? Or it could be a projection of your super-ego, of your self image...that´s why you´ll find all the "noble" animals in this anthro-zoo, but never an animal humans connect to unpleasant and despicable parts of their character. Why only "noble" animals and not vultures, beetles and worms, a mole, a hamster or a pig? Why do you really need other people to reassure you? They will never understand, they will only be polite to you as a friend, but walk away, thinking "Hell, I never expected him/her to be such a loonie" Everything has a price: being an animal in a human shell costs you keeping your mouth shut and dealing with the whole fuzz yourself. Simple as that. Does an animal need human reassurance that it is an animal? Coming back to the "magic" thing: Well, do you think I´m some kind of magician,then? Why are you afraid to seek someone who breeds wolves,there are quite a number of people around the globe doing that? Is it because you fear the outcome could destroy your beliefs? Why the lack of confidence in your animal within? Why do you compare it to transgender stuff when we´re dealing with something much more serious than man made gender definitions and conventions? Why do you think an animal´s perception has to match human perception which is blurred by intellect and learned thought patterns?
So, you do not want to keep secrets? Well, then you chose the most inappropriate form of sexuality. And why is it so hard to keep a secret? Is it because of human fancy? The need to "be" someone? Experiencing the reactions of fellow humans for self esteem? Why the need to come out, as a zoo, as an animal? Have you ever tried something that can bring you closer to what you really are, like ecstatic rituals, psychedelics, deprivation techniques? What makes you sure of your animal self , except of your feelings? The human body and mind is a very powerful instrument of self deception and can be easily led to fall into any imaginable reality tunnel, white middleclass young adults thinking they "really" are afro american hiphoppers, a whole nation believing they are the "Herrenrasse", other people considering themselves followers of the "one true god" ,killing "infidels" in the most brutal way imaginable. If you have nothing more to back up your claim you´re truly are an animal than your feelings, well, is it possible you could be wrong and fooling yourself?
Yes, it´s only my opinion and you can legitimately discard it as nonsense from an asshole. But when I was experiencing the first "symptoms" of "therianthropy", it wasn´t assurance from humans I sought for. For me, it was more important to examine my own mind to ensure I wasn´t fooling myself, searching for something more reliable than simple feelings. The solution to your problems lies within you. Seek possibilities to silence your conscious human mind ,plunge into your subconscious and see if you find "wolf" in there. Contacting your totem animal/guardian spirit/whatever you like to call it will definitely help you more than coming out to friends. If "wolf" really is inside there, you´ll find him. No, even better, he´ll find you. Maybe you´re partially right and this is a kind of magic in the end. This is the way of the shamans, ancient wisdom, practiced for over several thousand years. But be aware that you can´t choose what animal totem turns out to be yours. They choose YOU instead. I don´t know if this is relevant to you anyways, but I do believe that contradiction and criticism is a hard, but very effective way to get closer to what really is true. Don´t take this as a personal attack, I only attack your arguments and views, not you.
"Discard your opinion if it fears contradiction." Jakob Bosshard, swiss author
I live in a country where it's illegal to breed wolfdogs, and the only zoo that offered close contact with wolves (which would have been fun) cancelled all future events because the wolves killed a zookeeper. I was a bit nervous even before that, because if the wolves had seen me as a wolf, they would not have treated me as a friend. No, wolves will attack other wolves in their territory. Just because I am a wolf (in a sense)
Btw, I know therian vultures, insects, fish, apes etc. So your point about everyone being "cool" creatures (how are wolves cool?), isn't valid.
You might believe in souls or magic or whatever. I am too much of a sceptic. I have known for a long time I am a wolf somehow. Whether or not it's all in my head, or whether I actually have a wolf soul or whatever you believe in... doesn't really matter. Just like it doesn't matter if my soul is bisexual or zoophile, or whether I am those things because of my upbringing or whatever. I am what I am.
Also, therianthropy is different from shamanism and totem animals. A lot of shamans have a "power animal", but they don't identify as animals. And i don't need magical rituals in order to connect to the animal I am. I am animal all the time. Magic, religion, etc, are human concepts. Of course, I am human too. We are writing in a human language, on human-made keyboards, with human fingers. Perhaps then, it's not so strange, that I wish to connect with humans as well.
Also, you write as if I chose to be a zoo? I did not. Life would have been easier if I hadn't been, since then I could have been more honest about my sexuality. Nobody chooses their sexual preferences.
Why I dislike keeping secrets? Because I think honesty is the best foundation for friendship. I loathe liars, cowards and hypocrites. Who enjoys lying to friends and family?
Well, you could move to a country where breeding your species isn´t illegal. If I were in your position, I definitely would do it, only to put myself to the test. Maybe you should choose a different approach to this; for me, you are way too much convinced although nothing hints at you being right except your own feelings. I constantly doubt and try to find some explanation for my state of mind. I never am totally and 100 percent convinced of what I am because I know how good a liar the human mind is...the only ones whose judgement I trust are the horses. I don´t mean to offend you, but for me you seem to project your sexuality into your alternate wolf persona. You still remain human and the wolf is just an icing on the cake. You "wear" the wolf like I am forced to "wear" the human. I may be wrong, but all you wrote came across that way. You´re just too damn sure about yourself, you know. Some wise man once said that only the absolutely crazy folks are absolutely sure. I haven´t read even the tiniest bit of doubt in your whole agruments. You want it too much, you want it to be real and use selective perception to reassure yourself. The problem with you "therians" is that you basically stay human. I´ve joined a "therian" group online for a few months several years ago and left because it all seemed to me so made up and pure fantasy. The behavior remained human, the characters showed human "qualities", the things they argued about were human, friendships and animosities remained on a human level. What exactly is the point on insisting to be an "animal" when there´s basically no change on the inside? For me, all of those "therians" seemed to be actors of a role, some of them were able to switch it on and off at will, some insisted on being that way 24/7, but still fell off their role when their attention slipped. I simply don´t buy the whole athro-/therian thing, you know. It should be the animals deciding if you are what you insist on being, not your own feelings or an echo-chamberlike community. For me, onl the animal´s decision matters, everything else is just...human, man made. You said you´re a sceptic. I recommend becoming a zetetic....the sceptic doubts everything except himself...the zetetic includes himself in his doubts.
Anyways, thank you for being open and discussing with me...
If you feel you are a horse on the inside, do you think it would be best for your outward appearance to match what you feel inside? If there was a way that your physical body could be changed to a horse body, would you want that change to happen? You seem to identify with being horse more than you identify with being human. I don't know what your feeling is about humans but I get the impression that you don't think very highly of humans generally at least. Given that you apparently seem to see yourself as a horse, would this mean that you are generally not in favor of interspecies romantic and sexual relationships? Do you believe it is best for relationships of that nature to only occur within a species? If so, how is it that you can be pro-zoophilia?
That is your opinion. I have doubted this. I have asked psychologists about this, discussed with others. I agree that the therian community has many people who might be roleplaying. I can just point at my feelings, instincts and experiences. I do feel like I wear a human mask. I mean, I used to think that everybody felt this way. That everybody wanted to chase and eat hares, for instance. But the more I talked to people about it, the more I learnt that what I experience is not common at all.
Anyway, you seem to believe that animals can see inside a person's soul or something. I do not believe such things. Therefore, our views are too different.
I don´t doubt your feelings and experiences. I just doubt your interpretation of them. How do you know what a wolf feels like if you never had any real life contact, no actual eperience? Could it be you only act out what you think a wolf must feel like? The human perception of a wolf instead of a real wolf? Policemen also have a chasing reflex, hunting down everyone running away from them...are all cops wolves? ;)And how do you know a wolf thinks that way? That he´s not only chasing prey as a reflex when he´s hungry?
Yeah, I do believe that animals have a perception of other living beings differing from human perception. I´ve seen to many examples of animals avoiding a certain person while happily greeting another one. Usually, the animal´s judgement is validated by my own experiences with the person the animals instinctively avoid... Animals can see beyond the body. They have quite a good judgement on who really is friendly and who´s not. I believe that anyone claiming to be an animal MUST pass THEIR test, THEIR evaluation. If they don´t see you as an equal, as one of their own kind, all this babble about being an animal in a human´s body is intellectual judo.
The same could be said for transgender people. How do they know what it's truly like to be another sex, liking cars and sports doesn't make you a dude, etc. I'd think that if you've put in yours of figuring yourself out, and you always reach one answer, that answer is probably true.
In the field of biology, we know quite a lot about animal behaviour, sensory perception, anatomy etc.
If the weird things I experience, if the feelings I have that I should have a certain body etc, all match up with wolves... well, you know what they say. If it quacks like a duck, walks like a duck...
You can get animals to accept you as one of them if you raise from them being very small, or the other way around (imprinting). But what does that say about the person's identity? Nothing really.
The more of your posts I read here, the more I regret not connecting with you back when I was on Werelist.
I made the unfortunate mistake of testing the waters of a MOGAI (marginalized orientations, genders, and identities) thread on a site I called home a couple months back. I introduced myself honestly, as a non-practicing zoosexual and Transspecies. And the other sexual orientations in the thread flipped out. Hastily called me a monster (one of the nicer names), and shaming me. I had expected some level of confusion, but not what I got.
What really set me from being neutral to against them is when I cited the historical path of gay rights. How they started out where we are now, and even just for mentioning it I was "being offensive".
Pretty much after that point I've decided the LGBT movement will see no support from me. I believe in equal love, nor conditionally equal love. I'll still treat them like any other person but I have a much shorter fuse and a "fuck all" attitude towards their community as a whole.
HOWEVER I don't want this post to be all sour; I did join a MOGAI community on Pacifica (an app for mood and health tracking for anxiety and depression), and when I introduced myself to these people they were genuinely curious about being transspecies, and in the end welcomed me into the fold. So there are little silver threads of good out there. It is really hard not to hate the LGBT crowed though, they complain about being oppressed then turn right around and kick zoosexuals in the balls. XP
That's just one of many problems plaguing the LGBT communities.
https://np.reddit.com/r/lgbt/comments/3uud7v/80_percent_of_black_gay_men_have_experienced/
https://www.change.org/p/human-rights-campaign-glaad-lambda-legal-the-advocate-out-magazine-huffpost-gay-voices-drop-the-t
I don't think that means we should give up on them, just that there are still many problems to work out.
The racism thing is bad, but kind of doesn't apply to the MOGAI community shaming another orientation (zoosexuality). I know some bi people have trouble with them, especially when they're in straight relationships.
And I actually agree with dropping the T. An identity has nothing to do with orientation. The former may influence the latter but they aren't even close to being similar. I never relate my species identity to my zoosexuality. One is internal, the other is external. I honestly often wonder how trans people got grouped in with LGB in the first place. =/
I will say that lots of the stuff they claim in the article is the pot calling the kettle black. Any-sexual people will react the same way they claim trans do when confronted with a disgreement. The petition is massively overreacting, but the overall goal of separating identity from orientation, I agree with.
Why does it need to be so strictly about orientation?
It's just to say that we're not the only one to experience rejection from the LGBT community, there are many issues up to blatant bigotry. Maybe the extent is larger with us, but it's still there for other groups.
It needn't "strictly" be orientation but I feel if people are going to unite for a cause those causes should at least run in the same vein as each other. The kink communities align more accurately with the theme LGB has going already. Trans really has nothing to bring to the table and can't relate to variant sexuality (by default assumption). It feels more like at some point these two experiences held hands and said "there there, it's hard for us too." And tacked the T on to be friendsies.
I know Bi and generic Queer people are kind of treated like the weird cousin at the sexuality family reunion. They hurt and need help too, but they don't fit neatly In either extreme so neither side quite knows what to do with them. Too much tumblr culture is seeping into the rest of the internet I think. Either that or people are getting genuinely meaner and dumber at the same time in the real world. =/