He's already teetering on the edge, if somebody with some eloquence and debating skills were to really nail home our arguments, I think he would support us.
If somebody were to take some common arguments and convert them into a somewhat condensed youtube video, it could be sent to The Drunken Peasants. if a few of us sent it, we would very likely attract their attention. The goal here is to just get our consent based arguments out there and get TJ(TheAmazingatheist) to respond to them publicly. I think this would be the easiest way, and I think if we managed to win him over we would have a very, very strong ally.
The glaring weakness in our movement is that we have no figureheads. While this is mainly a side effect of how fractured the community itself is, I think we can overcome it. We need people who are willing to take their passion, their fire and brimstone, to youtube. Much like the early days of the atheist movement on youtube. We need actual figureheads we can rally behind and prop up. Youtube is a very powerful medium, and the best way for us to attract the attention of powerful allies like TheAmazingAtheist is for one of our own to rise to their level.
Too bad almost all of you are content to wallow in the shadows and hide like cowards, even in anonymity, even behind unneeded proxies, people are still terrified of the invisible boogeyman, and the zoo movement will never make any more progress if that continues.
If this guy had any sympathy for zoos, he already would have joined in here, don´t you think? I consider it to be a bad idea trying to "win him over"; this smells like recruitment. Additionally i doubt that social media platforms have a significant effect on public´s opinion towards zoophilia. We Germans have the ZETA-verein, founded 2009. The ZETAs are operating openly, they upload videos and texts doing eactly that what you have in mind... better representation of zoophilia and trying to shape the public opinion. ZETA is out there for nearly six years now and nothing has changed at all. Well, Germany prohibited sex with animals in june 2013....you totally overestimate the effects of doing PR for zoophilia. There are only two groups of people who actually can make a difference: scientists by researching zoophiilia and inventors by inventing a human-animal translator. Also there are only two ways to get rid of a law: the first is creating enormous social pressure by gathering the majority of population as supporters. I reall wish for that, but if you´re realistic, well, not the next couple of hundered years. The other way is getting rid of a law by not creating chances to apply it. No fencehoppers, no animal porn, no caught fools for ,let´s say, ten, twenty years and the first lawmaker will ask himself if this law is really necessary. Chances that all those fools making it into the media and courtroom will end their actions: slim to none. Penis erectus non compos mentis...an erect penis is not composed of thoughts.
You could try becoming this guy´s friend instead of trying to instrumentalize him for your own purposes. Maybe he´ll speak out for the zoos without any "plan" to win him over.
The reason Im against a zoo movement is precisely because there is no boogeyman. No one is hunting us down to jail us. Just dont make yourself an obvious target. The only thing you need to do to live the life of a zoo is keep it behind closed doors. You can still talk about it to people on the internet, like we're doing now, if you really want.
There was a time when I thought having acceptance would be pretty sweet, I dont like lying to people about why I dont have a GF, but the more I thought about it the more I realised we've actually got it pretty good as it stands. Its too risky (IMO) to push for acceptance. There is little to gain, but a lot to lose.
I wouldn't say there's no one trying to hunt zoos, I know there's at least one guy doing it. Of course, an organized group of people isn't likely and these individual vigilantes can be twarted by not posting revealing personal details.
https://twitter.com/search?f=tweets&vertical=default&q=opbeast%20dox&src=typd
https://twitter.com/4n0n0p83457/status/669078259431317505
https://twitter.com/hashtag/opbeastchristmasparty?f=tweets&vertical=default
Of course they are mostly too stupid to actually dox most people, but if they could, they would...
@4n0n0p83457
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There's probably a law against deliberately sending them a large quantity of fake data. DOS a DOXX. Wonder what would law cover it.
I'm pretty sure twitter already forbids doxing, so if enough people were to report them, they'd probably get their twitter accounts suspended.
One of my elsewhere contacts informs me that both pro-zoo and anti-zoo twitter accounts are regularly suspended by mutually reporting each other. This does not seem to be a big, or long term, penalty for either side.
Inserting, for example "David Hameron" [sic], however, would diminish their perceived trustworthiness.
Do you really take them as a serious threat?
Yes, there are some people out to hunt down "zoophiles". But especially OpBeast is nothing more than a bunch of self righteous little internet kiddies with a really big mouth, but only a very tiny arsenal. "Click here to save an animal from being raped"....yeah, really? Usually, those self proclaimed "zoo hunters" lose interest in their newly found "hobby" when success doesn´t come overnight. If you take a closer look at those hunters, they all make a big fuss about zoophilia, but can easily turn the hatred they unleash at the "vile animal fuckers" towards their own comrades. 2 - 3 years ago, the German anti scene stood united against the "animal rapists". Today, they hate each other and even call former alliies zoophiles only because some individuals woke up and realized how irrational and hateful their campaign is. My absolute favorite: Carsten Thierfelder, the man who calls anyone a zoophile who does not share Thierfelder´s opinion...
Abstain from stupid actions painting a crosshair on your back, like uploading porn, fencehopping, giving out personal info online...just play it safe and think with your head, not your dick, then everything will be fine. Take precautions before you act. Being a practicing zoo isn´t as hard as some like to insist on for the "outcast" and "we against the rest of the world" thrill.
Yeah, I'm not concerned about them. They're script kiddies who, if anything, are more likely to disrupt an investigation (either by real law enforcement or vigilantes) than actually harm zoos. There are, however, people conducting their own private investigations to accumulate evidence and information to turn in to legal authorities. Most of these wannabe internet vigilantes will announce their intentions and blow their own covers. There are a few smart ones though who stay quiet. They're more of a worry, but again, easily thwarted by being cautious with anything identifiable.
All the same, I don't want to raise a ruckus.
Drawing attention to yourself as a zoophile is dangerous for the well being of yourself & your loved ones (both human & romantic), even if nobody hunts you or your loved ones down.
I just want to keep a peaceful life with my JRHNBR mare.
As much as I agree with what you're saying it sends chills down my spine. I'm content and I know a lot of us are content to just live under the radar and even if it was legal that's what you'd want to do to avoid peoples disgust regardless. That being said the reason it bugs me is because we have become content living under the radar, doing nothing is probably the best option, but it does still bother me.
I don't really see the point in that. I'm in favor of zoo tolerance (acceptance probably isn't going to happen for a very long amount of time), but it needs to happen organically through popular public figures coming out of the closet and scientific research.
A large amount of TheAmazingAtheist's viewership probably wouldn't even be that staunchly opposed to zoophilia anyway, but it would give conservatives more ammo to use against atheists which is something he'd likely to avoid.
Shit's actually not that bad for us at the moment anyway. Look at the percentages in surveys about how many people have had sexual relations with an animal, then compare them to how many people you see in the news being convicted of bestiality. It's very hard to be found guilty unless you're producing porn, and even then it's rare.
Yeah, because if everyone accepted zoophiles, I'd be out talking about it and fucking dogs in front of open windows.
I think not. I barely talk about my homosexuality toward humans with anyone, even though that's well accepted these days. Frankly, it wouldn't make a difference if zoophilia was accepted, because what do you expect us to do? Take animals on dates to fancy restaurants? You can already basically date a dog in public and no one would know a damn thing. You'd just look like someone who takes their dog everywhere, which isn't unacceptable at all.
So fuck off with calling us "cowards" until you get off the computer and into the limelight. I'm happy with my life already; Maybe you're not. So one of needs to make a change, and it's not me.
And by the way, some of us have careers that we aren't willing to throw away for an incremental change. Is that selfish? Maybe. But your lack of satisfaction with society is your problem, not mine.
Apparently this is him at its best: https://i.imgur.com/H4hWm.png
And then of course this: https://youtu.be/3_3pyZiamGg?t=727
I don't want this guy associated with me...
Oh, PZ Meyers has posted about it: https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2012/02/08/the-not-so-amazing-atheist-self-immolates/
which reminds me of this article his daughter has written: https://web.archive.org/web/20080517045919/http://skatje.com/?p=343
I can't believe I'm doing this, but here, on conservapedia is some more:
http://www.conservapedia.com/PZ_Myers_on_bestiality
http://www.conservapedia.com/Skeptic_Skatje_Myers%27_comments_on_bestiality
If you want to have a respectable "figurehead", I recommend you look in this direction.
Dont forget about Peter Singer as well.
Speaking of Peter Singer, he's scheduled to do an AMA on Dec. 10 at 3 PM EST.
Holy shit! thanks for the heads up. Gonna be the first AMA I want to get to when it opens. Thanks.
The Miraculous Misogynist.
Personally, I'm a fan of the guy, though of course I don't agree with everything he says and his loud, crass, and boorish manner doesn't do him any favors as an advocate, to put it kindly. I don't really know of any time when he has convinced someone of his views who didn't already agree with him somewhat.
That said, I think the picture he shows to people as an abusive hairy asshole is more of an act than who he actually is, and because he is above all an entrepreneur, and shock gets him attention and money, he's not likely to stop anytime soon. His audience (mostly men who are difficult to offend in the first place) are likely to be reasonable about the subject, but also difficult to cause to act in any significant way.
However, I think an appearance on the Drunken Peasants would be a good idea for us for two reasons. First, their blend of weird humor and sexuality with rational argument lends itself well to the discussion. They already discuss related issues (religion and politics) and aren't afraid of controversial guests (Mercedes Carrera, a porn star, among others).
The second reason? Technically, TJ is well-known to be "below" us, having had sex with a banana, which they joke about all the time. That lends itself well to an opening icebreaker, and assuming someone is thick-skinned enough to hold their own in an insulting, loud environment like that, it's a good way to get a rational countercultural audience.
Wow, I never heard of this guy before, but he seems to be a really compassionate, loving and caring character...;)Honestly: I asked my friend who is in his twenties and more involved into the internet. He said that this guy actually makes a fortune with his posts.....really? Really????
Where can I apply for a job like his? Being paid for being a gigantic, insensitive asshole with manners straight from the gutter and a vocabulary consisting mainly of four letter words.....where do I have to sign? ;)
I think just having a video given to TJ pro-zoophilia would make him an anti, TJ is a contrarian, he loved saying "fuck you" to what ever video is being played on DP I know as an avid viewer. A much better plan would be to send him some anti shit and activate his contrarian mode. Sadly I don't think TJ would ever come around to our side simply because I think he thinks we're a bunch of crazies.
That is one thing I definitely do not understand is being content hiding. People's lives get destroyed and the stigma can be very mentally damaging for some people. Maybe it is just me but I would have a very hard time saying I am content in the shadows while others lives are destroyed over that very attraction I have, if I were a zoo anyway. Idk, maybe that is an ignorant statement because I do not know any better not being a zoo and all, but I have put my self in the crosshairs before to talk about this topic in open discussion with others and despite it not really even being my fight.
It totally depends on your priorities. What makes me happy is living with my mare. being accepted by society would make life even better, sure. But it isn´t that important for me, my focus lies on actually leading a good relationship rather than becoming an activist for anyone who wants to try out animal cunt/dick/ass... I really doubt that making animal sex available for anyone will do us as a community any good, nor will it be beneficial for the animals...the ones we claim to love beyond ourselves. Also, it really depends on what someone can lose by his actions. When being too open about it, I could lose my entire life, a more than 20 year long loving relationship, my job as a riding instructor, my right to own an animal etc...when I evaluate the possible wins and the possible losses, it just isn´t worth it. Any poker player would pass his cards with pot odds as shitty as this...
I get that, I really do, but for me personally it would not be about public approval, it would be about those suffering. I really think it is entirely possible for this to be considered acceptable in a way that would still be safe for the animals involved. Even without revealing your true identity there are things you can do through the anonymity of the internet. This may not be the best example, but think of asexuals, and things like AVEN. Before the internet anybody who was asexual for the most part was pretty certain they were alone, but it started with people online, getting together, talking things out, with a goal of education and research on things like AVEN it gradually led to meet ups, awareness videos, etc. Now it is getting close to the mainstream public learning about asexuality, it took years sure, and there is still a ways to go, but it is possible for us, and possible for you. I once actually had a discussion on AVEN about this subreddit and somebody mentioned the similarities they saw with the anonymity of the internet bringing people together to discuss the important issues.
I get your point, but also see the problems with these virtual gatherings of people with similar interests. Nietzsche once said that madness is rare in individuals, in groups it is common. Online communities tend to serve as a substitute for real life contacts, but will never replace them due to their limitations. Sometimes these communities mutate into a hug box, an echo chamber, a social drug and could cause more harm than doing good. There´s also social dynamics involved, possibly forcing easily influenced people into things they would´ve never even thought of doing without the group´s input.
Being born in the beginning of the seventies, I went through puberty without the net. I quickly realized that something was different with me. I had to fight through the phase of becoming aware alone. In retrospective, I wouldn´t say it harmed me in any way to deal with everything alone, it made me stronger and independent. The first support I ever had were thee books: Josef Maassen´s book about zoophilia, Midas Dekkers´ book Beloved Animal/Geliebtes Tier and, much to my embarrassment, Mark Matthews` stupid ass shit bestiality report The Horseman. This was the only input I had before I found the IRC chat groups in the beginning of the nineties. Without a whole lot of material and support, I had to develop independence, pride, acceptance of myself by myself. For me, this is the most reliable way to get along with being different. We all know that even in our own community, there are lots of people who identify as attention whores searching for contact rather than discussing zoophilia. We all know those special individuals who are online almost 24/7, dependent and more interested in the cozyness of the community than the actual practice of zoophilia. We know how easy it is to "cheer up" and "support" those with issues, just a few, mindless words.. but do you really think this helps anyone? When going offline, the problems keep coming back. By being too supportive and avoiding any confrontation we form an echo chamber, additionally keeping people from getting real, professional help. I know, there are some benefits from communities, but they´re not totally risk free. Talking people into something happens, just check out how "supportive" the members of Bf are when another newbie who´s "interested" in bestiality acts arrives. I believe that helping people online is possible, but not actually real help. The realization that there are others like me, with similar problems they face, first gave me a little push in self confidence, but after the first excitement about the fact I´m not the only one experiencing this wore off, the problems still were there.In the end, forming a solid and stable peronality is up to the individual, entirely. All the help of the world won´t offer real support when you´re not already have started the internal process needed. And if you already have, online support is a nice treat, but not a must-have. A nice bonus.
Today, you only have to google your deviancy to find all types of groups offering support. It has become user friendly, you´re not obliged to think about yourself. The introspectivity does not play the leading role anymore. But only thinking about yourself will actually lead to self awareness, a vital part of coming to terms with yourself. So, all these social platforms really are nothing more than a decoy keeping you off essential duties as it´s easier to get your cheer up online than reassembling your own points of view to generate a higher coherence in ourself. Thinking is out, convenience is in.
Especially zoophilia is something that forces you to reconsider anything you do on a daily basis. ("Have I forced myelf onto her because I was horny?" , " Is there a possibility I interpret her behavior wrong?" etc.) By offering relatively easy ways to take the shortcut to self awareness and self acceptance, we keep people from the truth. That´s why we have so much whining about the "evil, unjust society" in here...nd that´s why , for some, it seems to be more important to form a new " sex lib" movement than actually working for a relationship with an animal. A scene where the meta level has replaced the original purpose of such online communities, helping others to lead a pleasant life, even with something so frowned upon like a zoophile relationship.
I think I understand what you are saying, the online communities can be just as bad as they are good. I think to fully understand what I mean you would need to check AVEN out for yourself at asexuality.org It is a very mixed community, with all different walks of life from all over the world. The main focus of the site is education and understanding each other and the rules of the forums are freeing enough you can talk about quite litterally anything peacefully, but strict enough people being jerks will be delt enough. If you want my honest opinion it is the best online community there is and the I could see a zoophile equivalent going a long ways, just as AVEN did.
I have spent a small amount of time on BF when I was trying to learn more and I think I will point out some of the problems I saw: Sexual chat and general discussion where mixed together. For anybody who is not a zoophile/into bestiality who is coming there to learn, this looks really bad, it is a big turn off. For presentation sake their ideally would not be any section for exchanging sexual things like that, but having a separate section for it may be acceptable. Additionally the rules seem very strict. I was banned on my first post for a minor infraction (posting a link when I had not posted at least 100 posts yet), the moderator even saying they took it personally. This is not a way to open minds, this is a way to close them. There was no repeal process and no way to even discuss with the moderator who banned me. This was another huge turn off, it is what led me to never go back. Third there were no education resources available. AVEN has asexuality defined at the very top of their page and make it very easy to find plenty of educational resource on the topic of asexuality so you can learn everything one could possibly want to know without even making an account (though being curious and asking on the forums is met with many friendly answers). BF seemed to just through everybody together and let them settle it themselves from what I could gather on my short time there. Now BF is not AVEN, and their goals are different, I just meant it as an example. Being asexual myself I found AVEN extremely helpful in understand this part of my self and making real connection with people who faced the same issues as me with their sexuality (note that I did not say people like me, all walks of life dwell here from different times, even non-asexuals sometimes. The fact that everybody is very different but gets along so well is part of what makes AVEN so useful and enjoyable) and I would like to thing a zoophile/bestiality equivalent would give similar results. I get that zoophilia and asexuality are nothing alike, but I think it is a useful analogy. Heck on AVEN you could even share porn if you wanted to, as long as you put warning in the titles and put in under the appropriate section as well as hiding the link to it in a spoiler, just do not expect the asexuals there to be too keen on watching it. I mean some asexuals watch porn, but very few.
You said it yourself. People's lives get destroyed and the stigma can be very mentally and emotionally and physically damaging for people. Imagine going public about a taboo attraction. The hatred is going to increase tenfold and now, it's going to be directed specifically at you. You stand a good chance of being arrested, especially if you've behaved sexually with whatever/whoever you're attracted to, losing your employment or any way to make an income, losing your family and your friends, being stripped of the right to be around animals (or whatever/whoever is the target of your attraction), and facing intense stigma, hatred, and judgement by all of society every single day for the rest of your life. The sacrifice to come out publicly i.e. to not "hide" is enormous: at this point in time, you would be sacrificing your entire life. That is a lot to ask of someone and exceptionally unfair to expect others to do it.
Also, because it can take years for anyone who is hated for who they are to come to terms with themselves, it should be enough that people are able to be content with who they are in the first place. That is not hiding. That is an incredible journey of self-acceptance that should be celebrated instead of guilt-tripped because in the end, the fact that one more individual was able to accept themselves and be content is a "win."
Nobody said anything about willingly coming out, in fact at this point in time I would discourage that, what I am talking about is taking steps online. Some huge movements these days start online, the internet changes the world. If you want to make a difference for people who's lives are ruined by the stigma, this is where you start, and the best part is the anonymity protects you.
Even doing "simple tasks" online has the chance to put people at risk. It is still a sacrifice; it still requires people to put time and effort into doing such work. You can still subject to all of the negatives I said above and your safety can be at risk. The anonymity does not protect you because few people online are truly anonymous. And if an online user is controversial enough, especially regarding a topic where some actions are considered illegal, it is very possible for doxxing to occur or authorities to be called (though I'm not sure how likely the latter is). Simply put, it is not fair to ask or expect others to do more for the community at their own risk.
Also, the kind of online awareness-raising you're talking about already exists. It's places like this subreddit and other zoo forums which I haven't frequented where people gather to discuss and open dialogue about zoophilia and everything it entails. It's places like non-zoo forums where people discuss and debate about zoophilia with others. So people in this sub who say they are content with 'hiding' are technically already doing the awareness raising you seem to want them to do. Having said that, that doesn't mean the people who refrain from discussing this topic at all (whether in public or online or in private) are lesser and should be talking about it. It's their personal choice in the end; only they have the right to accurately access the risks and benefits that doing so would have on themselves.
I dislike this guy. Quite a lot actually. But I've discussed with him before and he seemed accepting of zoophilia. This was some years back now.
That said, I'm of the opinion that he does what he does purely for money and views, not because he really genuinely cares about the issues he discusses. As a result, I would not expect him to publicly defend zoophilia unless he saw some personal benefit from doing so - increased view count from the controversy, perhaps.
This. I have done some research on it and he looks like every con artist I have looked into. The flip flopping over time. The blind ignorance and disregard of respect for other youtubers even. Hes just a stereotypical leftist asshole.
Plus the people that watch his "content" you probably don't want advocating for Zoo legalization even. You really want educated and respectful people to do that, and his army of shills do not scream either of those to me especially based off of the Tommy Sotomayor shit.
You would have better results if you went to Reason and got them to write something up or writing to your congressman.
the fuck, TJ has nothing directly against zoophilia. he is rather neutral on that topic.
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You people are fucking wierd.
Yiff in hell, dog fuckers
We sure will.
http://amazingatheist.tumblr.com/post/136142420021/you-know-the-bestiality-community-is-dying-for-you
An egotistical, leftist parasite, who is unquestionably racist?
Hes a con artist and an unadulterated idiot just do some research. The fat fuck isn't a person you want to have talking in your name. Find someone like Ben Shapiro/Gavin Mcines/or Ron Paul and thats alright.
In his very first video he said niggers if I remember, recently he was essentially calling Tommy Sotomayor a "watermelon fucker" and pretended like he totally wasn't racist. Racist liberals hate conservative blacks, its a long running trend.
TheUnAmazingAtheists whole spiel is just being as ignorant and offensive while pretending he has the intellectual high ground. Hes a douche bag.
Find someone respectful and intelligent and who isn't a flip flopper to allie with if you want to be taken seriously instead of just regarded as a bunch of pricks.
Libertarians/Classical liberals are your best bet.