submitted 2015-12-10 21:42:59 by actuallynotazoophileok, I lied
actuallynotazoophileok, I lied 5 points on 2015-12-10 21:46:25
granted not the best question I could've came up with but after being excited for this I actually forgot that this was today until a few minutes before it opened.
I agree with him on his answer. Its very hard to predict if the taboo will get lifted, but if it happens it will happen organically rather than by the hand of any pro-zoo groups.
im still chuffed he read my crappy question though, very cool.
wright-oneursidae canidae pantherinae 3 points on 2015-12-11 08:00:55
against my better judgement.. i got involved.
Cyenawe 2 points on 2015-12-13 07:32:04
You and me both. That bomba-something was just too pompous and self righteous for me to ignore. XP
ursusem 2 points on 2015-12-13 08:00:53
He was all like- "animals are completely brainless." What a douche
wright-oneursidae canidae pantherinae 1 point on 2015-12-14 06:57:33
ha ha ... it's good to see that people are getting involved with this thread. i wonder if peter is still reading. doubtful, i suppose.
30-30amator equae 5 points on 2015-12-11 08:32:54
I couldn´t agree more with Mr Singer, if there is a change in the future, it surely won´t come by force and "education". Groups like ZETA, educational videos on youtube, books, etc...any of this is already out there and hasn´t brought much progress.
Nice choice to call it organic...you can´t pull the grass out of the ground to make it grow faster, quite the opposite, you kill it off by pulling it too hard. As hard as it is, but Mr Singers opinion holds truth and value. We should all learn not to force ourselves onto the public. When the time is right, change will happen naturally. Keep zoophilia off the media at all costs and when our time has come, we´ll be there to educate and discuss...
zetacolaMarooned 2 points on 2015-12-13 22:02:06
So we'd need to wait for the world to abandon its puritanical and anthropocentric views and start to be more accepting of something that has been an unspeakable taboo for a thousand years at the least. By itself. I'm sorry, but that is just never going to happen. Singer is a marginal. His opinions on animal welfare and the ethics of zoophilia are just words and will continue to carry absolutely no weight unless people are willing to back them with action.
The time will never be right. Our time will never come. We need to make it come.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-12-13 23:27:19
I agree with you to some extent I agree. Do you feel that zoophilia is anything like Nephilim, by the way? That would be another religious reason (I suppose) to be against this form of deviancy.
zetacolaMarooned 1 point on 2015-12-14 00:18:43
I'm sorry, I don't know what Nephilim is.
ursusem 1 point on 2015-12-14 00:48:51
Google it
zetacolaMarooned 1 point on 2015-12-14 01:25:41
Offspring of angels and humans? Is that it? I guess you could liken it to zoophilia because it's ultimately about superior beings mating with "lesser" beings. You'll have to forgive me if I'm wrong. I am not well-versed in semitic mythology.
Religions certainly don't help, but I don't think they are the crux of the problem. Religion and faith is a tool used to excuse behavior and belief, but is rarely the source of the behavior or belief. In the end, the real culprit is Western culture as a whole. It's how we see animals, how we see ourselves, how we see animal/human interaction and how we see sexuality. If no one is ready to actively challenge these preconceptions, they will never change by themselves. Ever. People, and therefore culture, tend to favor inertia. It takes reactionaries and radicals to make it move forward.
30-30amator equae 1 point on 2015-12-14 06:27:51
Hmm, we need to make it come? This is too simple and only scratches the surface of the whole problem. For those among us who are in a relationship with an animal, there´s more to be lost than just reputation. Have you thought about drawing attention towards those by starting a public campaign? I can tell you from my 2 decades being involved in this that campaigning, trying to make zoophilia publicly tolerated/accepted has only made everything gradually worse. I don´t see any chance to gain tolerance by going out into the public and forcing us into society´s perception.
And, what´s even more important, what exactly would we be fighting for? Legalization of animal porn? A "right" to fuck every animal you come across? What exactly is it we´re striving for?
I don´t want zoophilia to be the next big thing in our "culture" of "anything goes" and "bucket lists". What I want is nothing more than being able to live in peace with my mare. I don´t want to fight for the porn industry, for those who do it only for their own sexual gratification, for those who don´t give a shit about the animal as long as they can get off comfortably. I don´t want to support the legal sale of animal porn in sex stores like I had the "luck" to witness when I was visiting Amsterdam in ´96. A quite impressive experience...it gave me the impression of what type of folks are interested in this kind of porn....I still shiver from that.
I don´t want to support additional exploitation of animals, done by industry or individuals.
Let´s face it, folks: if you really are determined to live the life of a zoophile, then you´re able to do that and even get through with it. All you have to do is to place your emphasis on privacy. You have to work for it, it surely won´t come falling down from the skies, it won´t be served on a silver plate. But if you truly put all your efforts into preparing yourself for a life like this, you can and will make it happen.
I really can´t understand why for some it is so goddamn important to be accepted by society.Sure, the consequences when you get caught in the act are there and far from small, but be honest: no one has to face these consequences when privacy and safety is your top priority.
Also you have to realize that your life won´t change a bit when zoophilia is accepted. There always will be people who hate you for being a zoo. You can´t force acceptance into poeples heads, you know. By becoming visible, you only give those haters a target to aim on. Given the fact that zoophilia isn´t very common, we lack the numbers to gain importance for politicians. We´re simply not enough to gain momentum and relevance.
A final inquiry: Why do you make it look like there´s only two options? Full blown campaigning or living a life in misery and denial aren´t the only options. If you can´t outgun society, you´ll have to outsmart it, that´s for sure.But what else turns you into the ultimate smartass than just living your zoo life without others knowing? There´s a third option: Just shut the fuck up, prepare everything and then live your life the way you want it.
Campaigning has caused the most severe setbacks for zoophiles. What once was underground and never crossed the eyes of the masses has now mutated into "zoo is the new gay"- misguided perceptions. People, just stop shifting the core meaning of zoophilia: living your life with an animal companion is what we all should focus on. If society will be ready for us someday, we will be there...but see tolerance and acceptance as a bonus, not a necessity for being an active zoophile. Nice to have, but not important anyways.
zetacolaMarooned 1 point on 2015-12-15 01:26:58
I understand where you are coming from, however you are putting a lot of words in my mouth. My point was that "gradual" and "organic" change for the better pretty much has no chance of ever happening. And things will probably get a lot worse than they are now. Criminalization of zoophilia affects our partners as well, this alone should be enough incentive to fight it.
I wish zoos had a bit more solidarity. But I guess instead I should feel content to "Just shut the fuck up, prepare everything and then live your life the way you want it." Implying the way I want to live my life is that of a closet bestialist.
30-30amator equae 1 point on 2015-12-15 08:02:57
You´re wrong. Change can and will come if we stop trying to force it into everyones heads. but let me ask you one thing before I continue: since you posted in another thread that you haven´t had any sexual contact with an animal, let alone a longtime relationship, how do you know what it is like to be an active zoo violating the law? You´re basically referring to something you haven´t experienced yourself. Let me assure you that all this "ooh, I´m sooo criminalized" is just dramaqueenism. Reality is, the law against sex with animals is NOT enforcable. How do you gather evidence if the zoo you try to expose is smart enough to abstain from putting it out in the open himself? If zoophilia happens in a safe environment, like your home, with drawn curtains and locked doors, how will anyone ever get enough evidence to actually interfere with the zoo? Let´s see: almost any case regarding sex with animals that has been unveiled in the last years has its origin in someone acting irresponsibly. Publishing selfmade porn, doing it in an unsafe environment (fencehopping), trying to hook up online with other "zoos"....any case of legal problems is self induced.
When has community and "zoo rights" become more important than actually living your life? Why do you crave for tolerance and acceptance so much when all you need to lead a happy life is some privacy?
By the way: there is NO criminalization of zoophilia, you can be a zoo as long as you like. What indeed is criminalized is having sex with animals. Note the difference.
Criminalization affects our partners, true. But you, like almost anybody else demanding "zoo rights", leave out how exactly these rights should be like. You demand something, but can´t specify what exactly it is you demand. To be taken seriously, you have to offer a real alternative to the public...and it surely won´t be accepted that anyone has a "right" to fuck animals when and where he or she wants to. This leads us to the solidarity point: I´m a zoophile. That translates from the greek words "to zoon" = animal and "ho philos" = friend(!), not fucker.
Solidarity for those who only use animals for sex? Solidarity for animal porn? Solidarit for fencehoppers? What kind of solidarity are you talking about? Tring to push a law change that only will allow any random pervos to get off with an animal surely isn´t what a genuine zoophile will ever want.
Let´s see: until now, we have nothing to offer...no vision of how zoos and non zoos can get along, no vision of what exactly is zoophilia and what not, no code of conduct that is widely accepted within the community. There are the zeta rules, of course...but just look at how many of the community members never heard of any rules and mistake zoophilia as a sexual playground where "anything goes".
Our community lacks of anything, we even can´t agree on what zoophilia exactly is: ask one hundered zoos and you´ll get at least 40 different definitions.
As an active zoo for more than 20 years now, I can only say that living your life according to your wishes isn´t as hard as it seems. It even is possible when your mare is boarded in a public stable, as my mare is. I never had any negative situations; surely, rumors about my mare and me spread, but as long as the others leave me alone, I´m okay with it. I really can´t understand that for some, like you, it seems to be more important to come out of the closet than living in a steady, longtime relationship with an animal. Is it beause you want to be recognized as something special? You subconsciously yearn for admiration ("Wow, dude, you do it with animals? That´s cool.") ? You want to be padded on the shoulder for your "courage" to be different? Well, all of that is bogus. It doesn´t matter if zoophilia is legal or illegal, you easily can avoid any danger by putting an extra effort on your privacy. Things won´t "get a lot worse"...that´s bogus, also and drama-queenism, also. How much it really matters if something is illegal or not when you exterminate any chance of being caught in the act?
A simple and sound advice from me: get your own animal. Owning an animal will open your eyes to what I have to say. When you own your animal, your entire way of thinking will change, I promise. Because it no longer is your ego everything is focused on..."zoo rights", "zoo pride", getting out of the closet etc., but your quadruped partner will always come first. You start to give a shit about outing yourself, "zoo rights" and such...that becomes totally unimportant. Just see it like this: what is more important? my imaginary "zoo rights" or the wellbeing of my mare? I wouldn´t be a genuine zoo if I wouldn´t choose the latter without hesitation, right?
Just calm down, don´t focus on legality so much and try to live your life the way you want it. Nothing else really matters. For me, remaining hidden and under the radar is a small sacrifice for giving my mare the horse-paradise life she deserves. It´s her I was born for, not for other zoos, a community or campaigning. You should share this view, it surely is less stressful and more rewarding than wasting your life struggling to make zoophilia legal and tolerated.
zetacolaMarooned 4 points on 2015-12-15 20:21:01
You need to learn to go easy on the straw men. You are arguing with your idea of who I am, not with me. You know next to nothing about me, stop assuming so much.
I know exactly what I'd be willing to fight for. I'd fight to keep non-abusive bestiality out of the scope of the already well-defined laws concerning animal abuse. Not only because I am a zoophile, but because it is a hypocritical and nonsensical line drawn in the sand from a legal perspective. And most of all because animals are at risk of being forced out of their homes and put down because of these insane laws. I don't really care for widespread acceptance or coming out. I wish I could stop living a "lie", but it certainly isn't necessary that I do so. I don't need to be seen as special or yearn for admiration.
Laws against sex with animals are enforceable, and they have been enforced in the past. The crux of the problem with these legislations is that law enforcement indeed does not need evidence to jail people. Once it is known you support or enjoy zoophilia in any form, you are a criminal. It doesn't matter if you weren't caught red handed or even filmed yourself doing it. It doesn't matter if no sign of physical or psychological abuse can be detected on your animal. It doesn't matter if you have been insanely careful all your life. You are a criminal, which brings me to my next point...
there is NO criminalization of zoophilia, you can be a zoo as long as you like. What indeed is criminalized is having sex with animals.
This isn't true. Sex acts with animals are not necessarily what is outlawed. What is criminalized is the state of mind in which the acts are done. I guess someone could get away with only a few weird looks if he admitted to purely platonic zoophilia, but at the end of the day, it is the state of mind, the erotic attraction to non-humans, that is the crime, not so much the bestiality itself. There is nothing illegal with wanking an animal to collect his semen or shoving whatever inside a female to inseminate her. But ooooooh if you derive pleasure while doing it, you are a sick, depraved psycho and you are going jail. The view society has of zoophilia has barely shifted since the middle ages. Thank god for "organic" change.
almost any case regarding sex with animals that has been unveiled in the last years has its origin in someone acting irresponsibly.
"Almost"? Better hope you aren't one of the unlucky few then.
Things won´t "get a lot worse"
Pull your head up from the sand man. Come on. It was made illegal in France since 2004. Made illegal in Belgium since 2007. Made illegal in Norway since 2008. Made illegal in the Netherlands since 2010. Made illegal in Germany since 2013. Made illegal in Denmark since 2014. Made illegal in Alabama since 2014. Made illegal in Denmark since 2015. And now Finland is considering making it illegal as well. Government mass surveillance has been on a steady rise for a decade now, and with the recent bullshit in France it's showing no sign of stopping. They want to give the power to law enforcement to barge in people's homes without a warrant for god's sake. Things are getting a lot worse for everybody on the privacy front, we just happen to actually have something to hide, you know.
Now I am one to think that if zoos don't paint a target on themselves they shouldn't have much to worry about. But for how long will this illusion of safety last, I wonder. So you've been lucky enough to bang your horse unnoticed for the last 20 years. Good for you bro. But I am young, and my own future is one of mass surveillance and truncated social rights. Things are not going for the best. At all. And it is seriously delusional to think otherwise.
That translates from the greek words "to zoon" = animal and "ho philos" = friend(!), not fucker
It's funny you say that. Did you know that in the 40s, early groups of gay rights activist preferred the term "homophile" to put emphasis on the love over sex? No matter what you might say or think, I believe we are closer to being the "new gay" then most people let on. Even if it's not widespread acceptance we are after, we have everything to win to at least being on the good side of the law.
But I certainly don't expect you or any other zoo to actually do something about it. We are all human after all. Stay in your little shelter all you want man. I only hope you and your mare get to live and die happy.
30-30amator equae 1 point on 2015-12-16 08:04:44
Well, I could give an answer to many of your points, totally destroying them, but instead I prefer to hint at your US centered point of view (In Germany, having sex with an animal is seen as a minor offense to the law, no jail time involved, not deemed a "criminal").
Just do as you like, man. Try anything you can come up with to change laws and societies general view of zoophilia ....but I´ve been there where you are at the moment and have to say that fighting for zoo rights is complete bullshit with no progress, no change for the better, no use for anyone exept those who want to be famous as "pro zoo crusaders". (BTW: that´s what my "almost" expressed. ZETA hasn´t done anything like porn , yet they still get harassed and sued sometimes because, like you, they wanted to "do something")
Anyways, there´s only one statement I have to make.
Fighting for zoophilia may seem like a good thing to do, but why aren´t there many active zoos like me engaging in this fight, you may ask? Simple reason: Because when I put my ass out there, raise my voice, it´s not only myself, but my mare who will have to face the consequences of my selfish pride. Actually, she will have to face the more severe consequences. She´ll probably be rehomed or euthanized. Do you really think I would make her pay for my own selfish pride? Just to make it easier for any random idiot to fuck animals? Really? Since you have no experience and have never had a longtime relationship with an animal, you don´t even know the slightest little bit about what this is like. I have a damn good reason to "stay in my little shelter", you have nothing except theoretical knowledge and a bloated up ego. "I want it to be legal", "I believe", "I hope".....Sometimes, the "I" isn´t really important anymore, that´s what is commonly called selfless love.
Go on with your crusade...maybe you´ll realize some day how useless and fake all of this "zoo rights" babble really is. If I wanted to be a mean bastard, I´d say that you are only emphasizing on your pro zoo crusade because you need to vent your unsatisfied sexual impulses. It´s always the non experienced who try to push others into their crusade, you know.
I can only repeat what I advised you in my former post: get an animal and live with it. You´ll soon discover why all of your activism is totally misplaced and even dangerous to the ones living hidden and unrecognized with their quadruped companions. People like you selfishly draw the spotlights to those (" Hey, I just heard about this zoophilia thing from a pervo on the internet. I wonder if the lone guy with his horse is ne of those pervo animal fuckers, too...let´s spy on him") and don´t give a single fuck about the consequences of their doings...even worse: this crusading BS is the major reason for the setbacks we zoos had to suffer from in the last few years. Without ZETA-Verein, we wouldn´t have an organized anti zoo scene in Germany. Only a visible enemy will make an organized alliance against this enemy possible.
Oh, just one thing you should take into your "new gay" considerations: it wasn´t the "gay rights movement" that made being gay acceptable. What really broke the ice in many peoples hearts was HIV/AIDS. Not many gays will confess that this was the major reason changing societies view on homosexuality, but it was. Seeing all those victims of the virus on the news led many "normal" people to a different view of homosexuality. It wasn´t the educational stuff that became the turning point, it was the high mortality, the gruesome pictures of gay men dying from the virus.
You totally overestimate the effects of teaching the public about zoophilia/homosexuality/ insert any non conformist orientation
Just let sleeping dogs lie. Focus on YOUR animals life, not on the life of others. This isn´t living a lie, this is just common sense.Especially in times of a global wave of anti animal sex laws. The average person really doesn´t give a flying fuck about you humping your animal...but if you try to turn zoophilia into the "next gay", they surely will start being pissed off. Joe Average has a right not to be confronted with animal sex against his will, you know? Just let sleeping dogs lie.
Virnibot 1 point on 2015-12-16 08:06:03
Virnibot has detected a misspelling or incorrect use of grammar in your comment.
Well, I could give an answer to many of your points, totally destroying them, but instead I prefer to hint at your US centered point of view (In Germany, having sex with an animal is seen as a minor offense to the law, no jail time involved, not deemed a "criminal").
Just do as you like, man. Try anything you can come up with to change laws and societies general view of zoophilia ....but I´ve been there where you are at the moment and have to say that fighting for zoo rights is complete bullshit with no progress, no change for the better, no use for anyone exept those who want to be famous as "pro zoo crusaders". (BTW: that´s what my "almost" expressed. ZETA hasn´t done anything like porn , yet they still get harassed and sued sometimes because, like you, they wanted to "do something")
Anyways, there´s only one statement I have to make.
Fighting for zoophilia may seem like a good thing to do, but why aren´t there many active zoos like me engaging in this fight, you may ask? Simple reason: Because when I put my ass out there, raise my voice, it´s not only myself, but my mare who will have to face the consequences of my selfish pride. Actually, she will have to face the more severe consequences. She´ll probably be rehomed or euthanized. Do you really think I would make her pay for my own selfish pride? Just to make it easier for any random idiot to fuck animals? Really? Since you have no experience and have never had a longtime relationship with an animal, you don´t even know the slightest little bit about what this is like. I have a damn good reason to "stay in my little shelter", you have nothing except theoretical knowledge and a bloated up ego. "I want it to be legal", "I believe", "I hope".....Sometimes, the "I" isn´t really important anymore, that´s what is commonly called selfless love.
Go on with your crusade...maybe you´ll realize some day how useless and fake all of this "zoo rights" babble really is. If I wanted to be a mean bastard, I´d say that you are only emphasizing on your pro zoo crusade because you need to vent your unsatisfied sexual impulses. It´s always the non experienced who try to push others into their crusade, you know.
I can only repeat what I advised you in my former post: get an animal and live with it. You´ll soon discover why all of your activism is totally misplaced and even dangerous to the ones living hidden and unrecognized with their quadruped companions. People like you selfishly draw the spotlights to those (" Hey, I just heard about this zoophilia thing from a pervo on the internet. I wonder if the lone guy with his horse is ne of those pervo animal fuckers, too...let´s spy on him") and don´t give a single fuck about the consequences of their doings...even worse: this crusading BS is the major reason for the setbacks we zoos had to suffer from in the last few years. Without ZETA-Verein, we wouldn´t have an organized anti zoo scene in Germany. Only a visible enemy will make an organized alliance against this enemy possible.
Oh, just one thing you should take into your "new gay" considerations: it wasn´t the "gay rights movement" that made being gay acceptable. What really broke the ice in many peoples hearts was HIV/AIDS. Not many gays will confess that this was the major reason changing societies view on homosexuality, but it was. Seeing all those victims of the virus on the news led many "normal" people to a different view of homosexuality. It wasn´t the educational stuff that became the turning point, it was the high mortality, the gruesome pictures of gay men dying from the virus.
You totally overestimate the effects of teaching the public about zoophilia/homosexuality/ insert any non conformist orientation
Just let sleeping dogs lie. Focus on YOUR animals life, not on the life of others. This isn´t living a lie, this is just common sense.Especially in times of a global wave of anti animal sex laws. The average person really doesn´t give a flying fuck about you humping your animal...but if you try to turn zoophilia into the "next gay", they surely will start being pissed off. Joe Average has a right not to be confronted with animal sex against his will, you know? Just let sleeping dogs lie.
You wrote exept which should have been except
<3 Good day Courtesy | Of | User Virnios
zetacolaMarooned 1 point on 2015-12-16 20:19:26
kek
30-30amator equae 1 point on 2015-12-17 06:32:52
Virnibot can suk ma dik...correct that, grammar nazi.;)
zetacolaMarooned 1 point on 2015-12-16 20:17:35
In Germany, having sex with an animal is seen as a minor offense to the law, no jail time involved, not deemed a "criminal"
[...]
Because when I put my ass out there, raise my voice, it´s not only myself, but my mare who will have to face the consequences of my selfish pride. Actually, she will have to face the more severe consequences. She´ll probably be rehomed or euthanized.
ok bro.
zoozooz 2 points on 2015-12-10 23:19:25
That was a very short AMA...
KynophileDog lover 3 points on 2015-12-10 23:30:00
I had the pleasure of meeting him at a conference a while back. Nice guy, very compassionate. I didn't ask him about this at the time, since it was an animal rights conference and I was afraid that it wouldn't be taken in the best light by the other people around, but still, an impressive figure.
/r/zoophilia archive
granted not the best question I could've came up with but after being excited for this I actually forgot that this was today until a few minutes before it opened.
I agree with him on his answer. Its very hard to predict if the taboo will get lifted, but if it happens it will happen organically rather than by the hand of any pro-zoo groups.
im still chuffed he read my crappy question though, very cool.
against my better judgement.. i got involved.
You and me both. That bomba-something was just too pompous and self righteous for me to ignore. XP
He was all like- "animals are completely brainless." What a douche
ha ha ... it's good to see that people are getting involved with this thread. i wonder if peter is still reading. doubtful, i suppose.
I couldn´t agree more with Mr Singer, if there is a change in the future, it surely won´t come by force and "education". Groups like ZETA, educational videos on youtube, books, etc...any of this is already out there and hasn´t brought much progress. Nice choice to call it organic...you can´t pull the grass out of the ground to make it grow faster, quite the opposite, you kill it off by pulling it too hard. As hard as it is, but Mr Singers opinion holds truth and value. We should all learn not to force ourselves onto the public. When the time is right, change will happen naturally. Keep zoophilia off the media at all costs and when our time has come, we´ll be there to educate and discuss...
So we'd need to wait for the world to abandon its puritanical and anthropocentric views and start to be more accepting of something that has been an unspeakable taboo for a thousand years at the least. By itself. I'm sorry, but that is just never going to happen. Singer is a marginal. His opinions on animal welfare and the ethics of zoophilia are just words and will continue to carry absolutely no weight unless people are willing to back them with action.
The time will never be right. Our time will never come. We need to make it come.
I agree with you to some extent I agree. Do you feel that zoophilia is anything like Nephilim, by the way? That would be another religious reason (I suppose) to be against this form of deviancy.
I'm sorry, I don't know what Nephilim is.
Google it
Offspring of angels and humans? Is that it? I guess you could liken it to zoophilia because it's ultimately about superior beings mating with "lesser" beings. You'll have to forgive me if I'm wrong. I am not well-versed in semitic mythology.
Religions certainly don't help, but I don't think they are the crux of the problem. Religion and faith is a tool used to excuse behavior and belief, but is rarely the source of the behavior or belief. In the end, the real culprit is Western culture as a whole. It's how we see animals, how we see ourselves, how we see animal/human interaction and how we see sexuality. If no one is ready to actively challenge these preconceptions, they will never change by themselves. Ever. People, and therefore culture, tend to favor inertia. It takes reactionaries and radicals to make it move forward.
Hmm, we need to make it come? This is too simple and only scratches the surface of the whole problem. For those among us who are in a relationship with an animal, there´s more to be lost than just reputation. Have you thought about drawing attention towards those by starting a public campaign? I can tell you from my 2 decades being involved in this that campaigning, trying to make zoophilia publicly tolerated/accepted has only made everything gradually worse. I don´t see any chance to gain tolerance by going out into the public and forcing us into society´s perception. And, what´s even more important, what exactly would we be fighting for? Legalization of animal porn? A "right" to fuck every animal you come across? What exactly is it we´re striving for? I don´t want zoophilia to be the next big thing in our "culture" of "anything goes" and "bucket lists". What I want is nothing more than being able to live in peace with my mare. I don´t want to fight for the porn industry, for those who do it only for their own sexual gratification, for those who don´t give a shit about the animal as long as they can get off comfortably. I don´t want to support the legal sale of animal porn in sex stores like I had the "luck" to witness when I was visiting Amsterdam in ´96. A quite impressive experience...it gave me the impression of what type of folks are interested in this kind of porn....I still shiver from that. I don´t want to support additional exploitation of animals, done by industry or individuals. Let´s face it, folks: if you really are determined to live the life of a zoophile, then you´re able to do that and even get through with it. All you have to do is to place your emphasis on privacy. You have to work for it, it surely won´t come falling down from the skies, it won´t be served on a silver plate. But if you truly put all your efforts into preparing yourself for a life like this, you can and will make it happen. I really can´t understand why for some it is so goddamn important to be accepted by society.Sure, the consequences when you get caught in the act are there and far from small, but be honest: no one has to face these consequences when privacy and safety is your top priority. Also you have to realize that your life won´t change a bit when zoophilia is accepted. There always will be people who hate you for being a zoo. You can´t force acceptance into poeples heads, you know. By becoming visible, you only give those haters a target to aim on. Given the fact that zoophilia isn´t very common, we lack the numbers to gain importance for politicians. We´re simply not enough to gain momentum and relevance. A final inquiry: Why do you make it look like there´s only two options? Full blown campaigning or living a life in misery and denial aren´t the only options. If you can´t outgun society, you´ll have to outsmart it, that´s for sure.But what else turns you into the ultimate smartass than just living your zoo life without others knowing? There´s a third option: Just shut the fuck up, prepare everything and then live your life the way you want it.
Campaigning has caused the most severe setbacks for zoophiles. What once was underground and never crossed the eyes of the masses has now mutated into "zoo is the new gay"- misguided perceptions. People, just stop shifting the core meaning of zoophilia: living your life with an animal companion is what we all should focus on. If society will be ready for us someday, we will be there...but see tolerance and acceptance as a bonus, not a necessity for being an active zoophile. Nice to have, but not important anyways.
I understand where you are coming from, however you are putting a lot of words in my mouth. My point was that "gradual" and "organic" change for the better pretty much has no chance of ever happening. And things will probably get a lot worse than they are now. Criminalization of zoophilia affects our partners as well, this alone should be enough incentive to fight it.
I wish zoos had a bit more solidarity. But I guess instead I should feel content to "Just shut the fuck up, prepare everything and then live your life the way you want it." Implying the way I want to live my life is that of a closet bestialist.
You´re wrong. Change can and will come if we stop trying to force it into everyones heads. but let me ask you one thing before I continue: since you posted in another thread that you haven´t had any sexual contact with an animal, let alone a longtime relationship, how do you know what it is like to be an active zoo violating the law? You´re basically referring to something you haven´t experienced yourself. Let me assure you that all this "ooh, I´m sooo criminalized" is just dramaqueenism. Reality is, the law against sex with animals is NOT enforcable. How do you gather evidence if the zoo you try to expose is smart enough to abstain from putting it out in the open himself? If zoophilia happens in a safe environment, like your home, with drawn curtains and locked doors, how will anyone ever get enough evidence to actually interfere with the zoo? Let´s see: almost any case regarding sex with animals that has been unveiled in the last years has its origin in someone acting irresponsibly. Publishing selfmade porn, doing it in an unsafe environment (fencehopping), trying to hook up online with other "zoos"....any case of legal problems is self induced. When has community and "zoo rights" become more important than actually living your life? Why do you crave for tolerance and acceptance so much when all you need to lead a happy life is some privacy? By the way: there is NO criminalization of zoophilia, you can be a zoo as long as you like. What indeed is criminalized is having sex with animals. Note the difference. Criminalization affects our partners, true. But you, like almost anybody else demanding "zoo rights", leave out how exactly these rights should be like. You demand something, but can´t specify what exactly it is you demand. To be taken seriously, you have to offer a real alternative to the public...and it surely won´t be accepted that anyone has a "right" to fuck animals when and where he or she wants to. This leads us to the solidarity point: I´m a zoophile. That translates from the greek words "to zoon" = animal and "ho philos" = friend(!), not fucker. Solidarity for those who only use animals for sex? Solidarity for animal porn? Solidarit for fencehoppers? What kind of solidarity are you talking about? Tring to push a law change that only will allow any random pervos to get off with an animal surely isn´t what a genuine zoophile will ever want. Let´s see: until now, we have nothing to offer...no vision of how zoos and non zoos can get along, no vision of what exactly is zoophilia and what not, no code of conduct that is widely accepted within the community. There are the zeta rules, of course...but just look at how many of the community members never heard of any rules and mistake zoophilia as a sexual playground where "anything goes". Our community lacks of anything, we even can´t agree on what zoophilia exactly is: ask one hundered zoos and you´ll get at least 40 different definitions. As an active zoo for more than 20 years now, I can only say that living your life according to your wishes isn´t as hard as it seems. It even is possible when your mare is boarded in a public stable, as my mare is. I never had any negative situations; surely, rumors about my mare and me spread, but as long as the others leave me alone, I´m okay with it. I really can´t understand that for some, like you, it seems to be more important to come out of the closet than living in a steady, longtime relationship with an animal. Is it beause you want to be recognized as something special? You subconsciously yearn for admiration ("Wow, dude, you do it with animals? That´s cool.") ? You want to be padded on the shoulder for your "courage" to be different? Well, all of that is bogus. It doesn´t matter if zoophilia is legal or illegal, you easily can avoid any danger by putting an extra effort on your privacy. Things won´t "get a lot worse"...that´s bogus, also and drama-queenism, also. How much it really matters if something is illegal or not when you exterminate any chance of being caught in the act? A simple and sound advice from me: get your own animal. Owning an animal will open your eyes to what I have to say. When you own your animal, your entire way of thinking will change, I promise. Because it no longer is your ego everything is focused on..."zoo rights", "zoo pride", getting out of the closet etc., but your quadruped partner will always come first. You start to give a shit about outing yourself, "zoo rights" and such...that becomes totally unimportant. Just see it like this: what is more important? my imaginary "zoo rights" or the wellbeing of my mare? I wouldn´t be a genuine zoo if I wouldn´t choose the latter without hesitation, right?
Just calm down, don´t focus on legality so much and try to live your life the way you want it. Nothing else really matters. For me, remaining hidden and under the radar is a small sacrifice for giving my mare the horse-paradise life she deserves. It´s her I was born for, not for other zoos, a community or campaigning. You should share this view, it surely is less stressful and more rewarding than wasting your life struggling to make zoophilia legal and tolerated.
You need to learn to go easy on the straw men. You are arguing with your idea of who I am, not with me. You know next to nothing about me, stop assuming so much.
I know exactly what I'd be willing to fight for. I'd fight to keep non-abusive bestiality out of the scope of the already well-defined laws concerning animal abuse. Not only because I am a zoophile, but because it is a hypocritical and nonsensical line drawn in the sand from a legal perspective. And most of all because animals are at risk of being forced out of their homes and put down because of these insane laws. I don't really care for widespread acceptance or coming out. I wish I could stop living a "lie", but it certainly isn't necessary that I do so. I don't need to be seen as special or yearn for admiration.
Laws against sex with animals are enforceable, and they have been enforced in the past. The crux of the problem with these legislations is that law enforcement indeed does not need evidence to jail people. Once it is known you support or enjoy zoophilia in any form, you are a criminal. It doesn't matter if you weren't caught red handed or even filmed yourself doing it. It doesn't matter if no sign of physical or psychological abuse can be detected on your animal. It doesn't matter if you have been insanely careful all your life. You are a criminal, which brings me to my next point...
This isn't true. Sex acts with animals are not necessarily what is outlawed. What is criminalized is the state of mind in which the acts are done. I guess someone could get away with only a few weird looks if he admitted to purely platonic zoophilia, but at the end of the day, it is the state of mind, the erotic attraction to non-humans, that is the crime, not so much the bestiality itself. There is nothing illegal with wanking an animal to collect his semen or shoving whatever inside a female to inseminate her. But ooooooh if you derive pleasure while doing it, you are a sick, depraved psycho and you are going jail. The view society has of zoophilia has barely shifted since the middle ages. Thank god for "organic" change.
"Almost"? Better hope you aren't one of the unlucky few then.
Pull your head up from the sand man. Come on. It was made illegal in France since 2004. Made illegal in Belgium since 2007. Made illegal in Norway since 2008. Made illegal in the Netherlands since 2010. Made illegal in Germany since 2013. Made illegal in Denmark since 2014. Made illegal in Alabama since 2014. Made illegal in Denmark since 2015. And now Finland is considering making it illegal as well. Government mass surveillance has been on a steady rise for a decade now, and with the recent bullshit in France it's showing no sign of stopping. They want to give the power to law enforcement to barge in people's homes without a warrant for god's sake. Things are getting a lot worse for everybody on the privacy front, we just happen to actually have something to hide, you know.
Now I am one to think that if zoos don't paint a target on themselves they shouldn't have much to worry about. But for how long will this illusion of safety last, I wonder. So you've been lucky enough to bang your horse unnoticed for the last 20 years. Good for you bro. But I am young, and my own future is one of mass surveillance and truncated social rights. Things are not going for the best. At all. And it is seriously delusional to think otherwise.
It's funny you say that. Did you know that in the 40s, early groups of gay rights activist preferred the term "homophile" to put emphasis on the love over sex? No matter what you might say or think, I believe we are closer to being the "new gay" then most people let on. Even if it's not widespread acceptance we are after, we have everything to win to at least being on the good side of the law.
But I certainly don't expect you or any other zoo to actually do something about it. We are all human after all. Stay in your little shelter all you want man. I only hope you and your mare get to live and die happy.
Well, I could give an answer to many of your points, totally destroying them, but instead I prefer to hint at your US centered point of view (In Germany, having sex with an animal is seen as a minor offense to the law, no jail time involved, not deemed a "criminal"). Just do as you like, man. Try anything you can come up with to change laws and societies general view of zoophilia ....but I´ve been there where you are at the moment and have to say that fighting for zoo rights is complete bullshit with no progress, no change for the better, no use for anyone exept those who want to be famous as "pro zoo crusaders". (BTW: that´s what my "almost" expressed. ZETA hasn´t done anything like porn , yet they still get harassed and sued sometimes because, like you, they wanted to "do something")
Anyways, there´s only one statement I have to make. Fighting for zoophilia may seem like a good thing to do, but why aren´t there many active zoos like me engaging in this fight, you may ask? Simple reason: Because when I put my ass out there, raise my voice, it´s not only myself, but my mare who will have to face the consequences of my selfish pride. Actually, she will have to face the more severe consequences. She´ll probably be rehomed or euthanized. Do you really think I would make her pay for my own selfish pride? Just to make it easier for any random idiot to fuck animals? Really? Since you have no experience and have never had a longtime relationship with an animal, you don´t even know the slightest little bit about what this is like. I have a damn good reason to "stay in my little shelter", you have nothing except theoretical knowledge and a bloated up ego. "I want it to be legal", "I believe", "I hope".....Sometimes, the "I" isn´t really important anymore, that´s what is commonly called selfless love. Go on with your crusade...maybe you´ll realize some day how useless and fake all of this "zoo rights" babble really is. If I wanted to be a mean bastard, I´d say that you are only emphasizing on your pro zoo crusade because you need to vent your unsatisfied sexual impulses. It´s always the non experienced who try to push others into their crusade, you know. I can only repeat what I advised you in my former post: get an animal and live with it. You´ll soon discover why all of your activism is totally misplaced and even dangerous to the ones living hidden and unrecognized with their quadruped companions. People like you selfishly draw the spotlights to those (" Hey, I just heard about this zoophilia thing from a pervo on the internet. I wonder if the lone guy with his horse is ne of those pervo animal fuckers, too...let´s spy on him") and don´t give a single fuck about the consequences of their doings...even worse: this crusading BS is the major reason for the setbacks we zoos had to suffer from in the last few years. Without ZETA-Verein, we wouldn´t have an organized anti zoo scene in Germany. Only a visible enemy will make an organized alliance against this enemy possible.
Oh, just one thing you should take into your "new gay" considerations: it wasn´t the "gay rights movement" that made being gay acceptable. What really broke the ice in many peoples hearts was HIV/AIDS. Not many gays will confess that this was the major reason changing societies view on homosexuality, but it was. Seeing all those victims of the virus on the news led many "normal" people to a different view of homosexuality. It wasn´t the educational stuff that became the turning point, it was the high mortality, the gruesome pictures of gay men dying from the virus. You totally overestimate the effects of teaching the public about zoophilia/homosexuality/ insert any non conformist orientation
Just let sleeping dogs lie. Focus on YOUR animals life, not on the life of others. This isn´t living a lie, this is just common sense.Especially in times of a global wave of anti animal sex laws. The average person really doesn´t give a flying fuck about you humping your animal...but if you try to turn zoophilia into the "next gay", they surely will start being pissed off. Joe Average has a right not to be confronted with animal sex against his will, you know? Just let sleeping dogs lie.
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ok bro.
That was a very short AMA...
I had the pleasure of meeting him at a conference a while back. Nice guy, very compassionate. I didn't ask him about this at the time, since it was an animal rights conference and I was afraid that it wouldn't be taken in the best light by the other people around, but still, an impressive figure.
He's a cool dude