All life is one. All mammal life has the same origin and thus it´s legit to (pre) assume similar abilities regarding social and communicative skills before studies like this proving it are published.
Horse, dog, monkey...the evolutionary blueprint´s the same. They feel like "us", they bleed like "us"...how many more "revelations" does it take to accept the obvious?
I was able to tell exactly how my mare felt and vice versa at any time .To me, this isn´t new.
All life is one. Stop eating your brothers and sisters.Stop opportunism, fellow zoos...go vegan now.
Swibblestein 5 points on 2016-02-12 17:08:59
I feel like you are anthropomorphizing animals to a ridiculous extent. I rather doubt that whales know anything about human facial expressions, and yet they are undoubtedly mammals. Different species have very different ways of communicating, and species which have very little to no history in close contact with humans likely have little to no inherent understanding of human expressions. We share a common ancestor with sponges, but it's pretty clear they have different social and communicative skills even without any research on the matter.
We're related to plants and fungi as well, so the "we're related" argument falls short to me. I'm a vegetarian, and I'd like to find a way to drop out dairy as well, so I don't disagree with your conclusion, just the reasoning you are using to reach it.
Life is diverse. That's part of what makes it fascinating.
zootrashcandoggy doodle dandy 1 point on 2016-02-12 19:14:49
To be fair, there are certain facial expressions/body language that are fairly universal- even reptiles and fish use open-mouthed threat displays and even some invertebrates will use 'growing' or 'shrinking' postures when faced with threats. However, these all likely arose from basic interactions a species would have with another (like fighting or hiding), and they serve a very different purpose than facial expressions, scents, and vocalizations which are used more between members of the same species. These messages don't need to be shared with different species, so they don't translate beyond the species barrier.
However, that horses are adept at reading human facial expressions still shouldn't be too much of a surprise. They're domesticated animals with a history that is very, very much tied to living around and interacting with humans. An ability to be empathetic towards, or at least read human facial expressions and body language would be important to help them stay alive in the odd multi-species herds they live in, and this is true of many domesticated species. It's actually thought to potentially be a feature of domestication, and it isn't found in wild relatives of domestic animals- as an example, dogs read human expressions too, but wolves don't.
Of course, in science, it really isn't enough to just make a hypothesis, no matter how obvious it seems, you also need to test it. And that's why you end up with conclusions where people go "Duh, we already knew that!"
Swibblestein 1 point on 2016-02-12 19:21:16
Indeed. That's why I included the line "little to no history with humans" when talking about whales - clearly horses have a history of interaction with humans, and so that wouldn't apply to them. And since most horses do interact with humans frequently, probably a good portion is learned as well.
But we don't seem to disagree too much on this. At the very least I agree with most of what you said here.
furvert_tailEquine, large canid 1 point on 2016-02-12 23:24:32
open-mouthed threat displays
You've just reminded me about the Terry Pratchett novel "Only You Can Save Mankind", where one of the main characters tries to show an alien that he's harmless and friendly by smiling with wide open arms, only to be attacked because the alien saw his open mouth as a threat and wide arms as preparing to grapple.
zootrashcandoggy doodle dandy 1 point on 2016-02-13 08:15:44
What's great is this actually has happened with real animals (the most famous example being a woman and a gorilla).
furvert_tailEquine, large canid 1 point on 2016-02-13 11:35:04
Seriously every time animal behavior scientists "discover" something "new" that animals can do like think or have emotions I think very few zoos or people for that matter are surprised, well at least it's on the record now so people can't say they don't.
actuallynotazoophileok, I lied 2 points on 2016-02-12 22:36:18
when do we get the research that shows animals can consent? :P
/r/zoophilia archive
New only to anthropocentric people...^^
Check out the link below:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-species_psychology
All life is one. All mammal life has the same origin and thus it´s legit to (pre) assume similar abilities regarding social and communicative skills before studies like this proving it are published. Horse, dog, monkey...the evolutionary blueprint´s the same. They feel like "us", they bleed like "us"...how many more "revelations" does it take to accept the obvious? I was able to tell exactly how my mare felt and vice versa at any time .To me, this isn´t new. All life is one. Stop eating your brothers and sisters.Stop opportunism, fellow zoos...go vegan now.
I feel like you are anthropomorphizing animals to a ridiculous extent. I rather doubt that whales know anything about human facial expressions, and yet they are undoubtedly mammals. Different species have very different ways of communicating, and species which have very little to no history in close contact with humans likely have little to no inherent understanding of human expressions. We share a common ancestor with sponges, but it's pretty clear they have different social and communicative skills even without any research on the matter.
We're related to plants and fungi as well, so the "we're related" argument falls short to me. I'm a vegetarian, and I'd like to find a way to drop out dairy as well, so I don't disagree with your conclusion, just the reasoning you are using to reach it.
Life is diverse. That's part of what makes it fascinating.
To be fair, there are certain facial expressions/body language that are fairly universal- even reptiles and fish use open-mouthed threat displays and even some invertebrates will use 'growing' or 'shrinking' postures when faced with threats. However, these all likely arose from basic interactions a species would have with another (like fighting or hiding), and they serve a very different purpose than facial expressions, scents, and vocalizations which are used more between members of the same species. These messages don't need to be shared with different species, so they don't translate beyond the species barrier.
However, that horses are adept at reading human facial expressions still shouldn't be too much of a surprise. They're domesticated animals with a history that is very, very much tied to living around and interacting with humans. An ability to be empathetic towards, or at least read human facial expressions and body language would be important to help them stay alive in the odd multi-species herds they live in, and this is true of many domesticated species. It's actually thought to potentially be a feature of domestication, and it isn't found in wild relatives of domestic animals- as an example, dogs read human expressions too, but wolves don't.
Of course, in science, it really isn't enough to just make a hypothesis, no matter how obvious it seems, you also need to test it. And that's why you end up with conclusions where people go "Duh, we already knew that!"
Indeed. That's why I included the line "little to no history with humans" when talking about whales - clearly horses have a history of interaction with humans, and so that wouldn't apply to them. And since most horses do interact with humans frequently, probably a good portion is learned as well.
But we don't seem to disagree too much on this. At the very least I agree with most of what you said here.
You've just reminded me about the Terry Pratchett novel "Only You Can Save Mankind", where one of the main characters tries to show an alien that he's harmless and friendly by smiling with wide open arms, only to be attacked because the alien saw his open mouth as a threat and wide arms as preparing to grapple.
What's great is this actually has happened with real animals (the most famous example being a woman and a gorilla).
Yes, I remember hearing about that. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bokito_(gorilla)
Seriously every time animal behavior scientists "discover" something "new" that animals can do like think or have emotions I think very few zoos or people for that matter are surprised, well at least it's on the record now so people can't say they don't.
when do we get the research that shows animals can consent? :P