This is starting to bother me a lot. Family and friends reproach me for being overly conservative with my money, not generous enough with it and obsessed with my finances. I don’t really know how I should deal with this. I live with my parents at the moment and my goal is to save as much money as I possibly can while I'm there. My parents think I do not pay enough “rent” to stay with them and get annoyed when I am reticent to pay more. I am no longer in education, with a full-time job and virtually debt-free. It's not that I don't understand their point of view. Life is expensive for them as well. The last thing I want is to become some sort of leech living off my parents' hospitality and goodwill. I certainly have a lot more disposable income than what I pay my parents and I do understand it would be way more expensive for me to live on my own. But I am not living on my own… I have very little freedom in my current position and the unstable familial situation I live in is often very taxing to me. I would lie to say that it doesn't bother me to pay even more to stay there. Maybe I am selfish, but right now I am very unhappy with my situation and my one goal is to save money to get out of that place while being sufficiently prepared to deal for what appears to be a very precarious future. I just don't want to pay even more!
Recently, a close friend of mine sharply told me to stop always thinking about money. I would have thought nothing of her remark if it were not for the tone she used to deliver it. It was annoyed and almost angry. I got slightly irritated at her comment at first and wanted to quip something back, but decided against and remained silent. The conversation ended right there and we remained in an awkward silence between us for a few minutes. We usually get along so well and never had, in all the years of our friendship, even the semblance of an argument. The fact that this good friend of mine reacted so bitterly about my relationship with money really gave me a slap in the face.
I admit I have an obsession with money. But it’s hard to explain to the people in my life why I feel that way. Money is for me a mean towards an end. It has never been the end in itself. I don’t want to be seen as somebody who cares about money for the sake of money. I don’t. Hell, if I cared about money like people think I do now, I probably would have gotten into a line of work that is a little bit more compensated. I don't care about money, I care about what money can bring me. It's very hard to try to convey this idea to the people in my life.
My end goal is to get a dog, big surprise. To be honest, I am desperate to have a canine friend in my life. It’s gotten to a point where it’s the only thing in life I could want. I have given up on almost everything else. I know people will tell me that’s ridiculous and that I should try to focus on other aspects of life... I have a career, I have friends, I have constructive hobbies. But something is missing from my life. And the thing is… the void won't be filled unless I have the money to make it happen. A lot of money, in fact. The cost of life is ever increasing; property prices are getting ridiculously out of hands... Although work hasn’t been hard for me to find (so far) and I’m virtually debt free, I can’t shake off this notion that I am going to require a shit ton of cash just to get one step closer to my dream. I am ready to wait a few years before making the commitment. I want to be thoroughly ready to let another being in my life. But the thought of having to wait for a decade or more for this to happen honestly… I’m not sure I can deal with it. The more careless I am with my money, the longer it’s going to take to get there. I don't want to wait dammit.
How do you think I should deal with this? I don’t see a lot of solutions to be honest, but maybe there's something glaringly obvious I just missed... One so-stupid-it-could-actually-work thing I thought was to pay my 'rents substantially more (the price of an apartment) and use the fact that I contribute to the family's finances considerably to leverage them into letting me have a dog. But part of me knows that's just too stupidly easy to work.
I guess it's rare for people to have their hope of happiness subsist exclusively on money, but it's the case for me right now. Am I just being a selfish asshole?..
Thanks for reading.
Dude. I feel like you've rationalized your self into knots.
Move out, get a cheap apartment, deal with life like every other adult. Unless your parents are permissive of your lifestyle, I wouldn't bring a dog into the mix.
Plenty of people are functional and happy living paycheck to paycheck. Does it suck sometimes? Yes. But the alternative is far worse. I firmly believe happiness comes from independence, not financial security.
eh, knots...
Seriously though, I don't know if that's what you're implying, but (cheap) apartment + dog pretty much has no chance of ever happening. Just finding a place that allows dogs is already a challenge. And what if I have to move out and find another place? Somebody's life other than my own would depend on my stability and security. I could go live on my own right now, nothing is stopping me really. I'd be a little bit happier, but that idea of saving money to build myself a better future basically goes out the window. Everything is just so fucking expensive.
Plenty of people are happy being in relationships with other humans, which is something quite feasible on a "paycheck to paycheck" lifestyle. However this is not entirely the case for what I desire. Am I wrong to think I will never live my life like every other adult?
Thanks for your input.
In short, yes. The fact that you are a zoo does not really impact the economics of life.
Just take a risk? Sounds like you're more risk adverse than money obsessed.
Didn't mean to sound flippant about your concerns.
I would be willing to take a risk if there would be at least a chance that it could work in my favor. But the way I see it now, there is no chance of that happening... To me, living on my own means giving up the last thing I really want in life, just to improve my quality of existence marginally.
Yes, you are correct. I am risk averse... But taking a risk like this scares the shit out of me. I feel my life hangs by a thread and with this last thread gone... I just don't know what I'd be capable of doing.
Like many others, I've lived in many cities and finding a place that allows dogs is limiting, but typically not a big deal. The cheap places tend to be the ones more accepting of dogs anyhow. You have to work a little harder to find a place, but they're certanly not that rare.
I've had a dog living with me for decades and I've rented all but 2 of those years. Take a trip to a local dog park and talk to folks, you'll find all sorts of people, especially young folks, who rent places with dogs. How is it they can do it if it's so impossible?
As for living on limited means, most zoos I know tend to live on the poorer end of the scale, yet so many manage it. Perhaps you should be asking how everyone else manages to do it instead of presuming it to be impossible.
I guess it's a small thing called learned helplessness.
"Others have made it because they are lucky, but I am not lucky so therefore nothing good will come my way."
Rationally, I know that it is not entirely the case. But my thought process is not rational. My brain tells me that if I don't have everything perfectly figured out something will blow up in my face down the road. And I can't have that. I can deal with the consequences of my decisions and actions by myself, but I just can't bring myself to subjugate another living being to them.
Let me give you an insight of how my mind responds to anything you said:
To me, it's the absolute contrary. Maybe it depends on where you live, but up here, places that let you have pets (not limited to dogs, but any pet) are rare as fuck. And those who do tend to be more expensive.
Young couples, maybe. Young celibate guy in his mid-twenties? Yeah, probably won't find anyone who fits the bill. A young celibate guy in his mid-twenties who rents a place alone, dog or no, is already a rarity. There is a reason why some 40% of millennials don't move out of their mom's basement.
Ok, so there are some who don't? Hope I won't be one of them then...
As a curiosity, how old are you?
I'm in my 40's, but not sure what age has to do with it as apartment availability and rent aren't based on age.
If you can't afford a place on your own, a well picked roommate not only reduces expenses, but is also an asset in those occasions when life (work, hospital, etc) intrudes and you can't get home to feed/walk/etc. I've had many housemates over the years, none ever suspected how far the relationship with the dog went (or if they did, they were completely silent about it).
Well, it's just that I find older people tend to tell me it's easier than what I make it out to be while people closer to my age tend to tell me their struggle is comparable to mine. You can't deny that age has something to do with the economic context in which a person has grown.
I've thought about moving out with a roommate, obviously. It just seems very risky and underhand to have this kind of relationship behind your roommate's back, but whatever. I'm probably just making excuses again.
Unless you're in a relationship with said roommate, your relationships are none of their business. It's pretty easy to do if you keep your relationships out of their life and keep them out of your relationships.
As for age, have you ever considered that those who are older than you might, perchance, have experience which you and those your age have not yet acquired and they might indeed see the situation clearer than you do?
The only advantage age has, is that of experience. A dollar in the hand of a 20-something is the same dollar as in the hand of the 40-something, or the 90-something, the only difference is perhaps in how it is spent; the dollar itself is indifferent. The 20, 40, and 90 year old have the same minimum expenses to maintain their lives; rent, the cost of food, and the ammenities of a modern existence do not vary based on age. Do you believe you are being discriminated against due solely to your age?
As for making excuses... You can have whatever excuses you like and be content with them; you should have a better perception of your own situation than anyone else, the risks and benefits are yours. If you find a risk unacceptable, that is your preogative.
Unless said relationships are against the law, you know. Then it kind of becomes everybody's business. It's not even about risk, really. Like I said, I feel it's underhand to get help from an unknowing third party to feed your desire to indulge in an illegal activity.
That's not my point. I talk about economic conditions and environment, which tended to be better in the past. People who have grown through these conditions had better odds of getting a solid head start. I don't believe I am discriminated per se. What I do believe however is that generations before me generally had it easier and had a very nasty habit of mortgaging their present at the expense of their (our) future. Don't take it personally, this is not meant as an attack to you or anybody here, but I find it incredibly hard to take what people 20+ years older say seriously when their only advice basically boils down to "it's easy." No, it's not easy. If it were easy, I, along with every other millennial, wouldn't struggle to find my place in the adult world.
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Could it be you´re just overly dramatic here? Im Germany, even people on social welfare can afford dogs (yes, plural..dogS). Dogs aren´t expensive, a cheap apartment where you´re allowed to keep animals shouldn´t be too hard to find, too. If you have a job that´s well paid, a bank loan is also possible if you really insist on having your own property. Without any debts and a steady income, no bank manager will reject you. Living alone would of course include all the annoying duties like doing the dishes and the laundry on your own...is it this what keeps you stuck at your parent´s house? ;)
No, seriously, plenty of zoos would envy you. You do have the possibility to let your dream become reality, so why haven´t you already done so? Money is nothing more than printed paper and can be replaced by work if you spend it, but time cannot be replaced, especially not time spent with a loved one. Just move out, buy a dog or two ( for company when you´re at work) and live your life. If I had the choice between being rich but lonely and being poor but with a mare by my side, guess what I would choose... ;)
I swear man, I had anticipated this exact answer from you, almost verbatim. I am being overly dramatic, sure. About as much as every other millennial in the Western world. All thanks to our predecessors who sold our country at a loss to China so they could secure their fucking retirement.
Jesus Christ, do you think if it would be that easy I wouldn't have done it already? "Yeah, just get a dog and let her rot in a cramped apartment 10 hours a day 5 days a week, it's easy." Sure. And when the neighbors complain one too many time it's bye bye.
Have you read anything I wrote? Is this some sort of joke to you? Well, it isn't a joke to me. This is my life, it's passing me by and there is nothing I can do.
Right now, I don't have a choice between "rich and lonely" and "being boor but loved." I have a choice between "being rich and lonely" and "being poor and lonely." Guess which one I'm going to choose.
Yeah, because any working dog owner "keeps his dog rotting 10 hours a day, 5 days a week".... Since you don´t seem to be open for my advice, I´ll just quit it here. Only one last thing: "The dedicated will find ways, the hesitant will find excuses."
And what advice have you given me? To live on social welfare and the information that apparently plenty of zoos should "envy" me? I envy normal people who will never have to deal with all this shit, is their quality of life somehow better because of it?
Most dog owners I know are 30+, are married or otherwise conjoint. Many of the have children. Many of them also see their dog as nothing more than furniture. I know precisely 0 people who live in an apartment with a dog. But that may be just confirmation bias. I'm sure it's a very common thing to do.
This is measurement error. I know no less than a dozen people who are under 30 and have dogs, some in apartments, some in houses they share with other people, some in houses they bought in a city where they can afford a house, after leaving their old location because it was too expensive.
I agree with "the dedicated will find ways, the hesitant will find excuses" (I might even use less flattering terms than hesitant). One can always find a hypothetical risk as a reason to not do something, but life has risk. Part of growing up (and I mean that in a serious, not demeaning way) is finding ways to balance those risks and your comfort zone.
While reading this, I had a brief moment of lucidity in which I realized I'm down to wanting nothing in life other than fucking a dog and I'm not even able to.
Aaaaand it's gone now :)
:)
But to put a more serious spin even on that, another part of life is realizing not all goals are feasible when we want them, in fact sometimes they are mutually exclusive to (or hindered by) other goals. Then it comes down to priorities, and what you do between now and that time, and of course all of that has risk and uncertainty built in, too!
I feel I already gave up too much of my goals to work towards this one. Right now, getting a companion is more to me than just a random bullet point on my bucket list. The loneliness is debilitating. Yeah, it boils down to priorities, I guess.
Thanks.
The advice depends on what sort of change you want.
Right now, I aim to make money faster. I'm learning the ins-and-outs of equity investment, but not as a get-rich-quick scheme. Like I said previously, I am a risk averse individual. I'm not making any sort of commitment without having thoroughly researched the ramifications of my decisions.
Moving to another country might be an idea, but again, this is something I'd only envisage in the long-ish term.
Thanks!
That's the nature of decision paralysis. You're never going to have it all figured out. No one does, not even the rich.
I would recommend talking with someone about these insecurities at greater length. But my only advice is to start IN A DIRECTION. Get moving. Even if it's not perfect, and you make a mistake, you will have made progress.
I don't understand. The best way to make progress is to stay exactly where I am, no?
Forgive me if I am unreasonable.
I can only use myself as an example, but I don't see progress as unidirectional concept.
I moved out when I was around 16. Washed dishes and put myself through high school and then college. I made a lot of mistakes and lived in some real shitholes. Life sucked for a while, but I was independent, scrappy and motivated. I have no regrets.
There were times where I could have given into the anxiety of not having enough, but I didn't. I kept building and working towards my goals. I don't want to sound preachy, but you're eventually going to regret being so conservative with your life.
You can either get mad about your situation and the world and just play it safe, or you can say 'fuck it' and do whatever you want. I've always been the type to say fuck it and deal with consequences in the pursuit of something I want.
You want independence from your family. Move out. You want a dog. Make a plan and get one. It really is that simple.
I think you're also suffering from loss aversion. You don't want to lose what good you do have in pursuit of something uncertain but better. That's normal. But you came here asking how to change your status quo. The answers are there, you just need to take a leap. No one is going to explain how you can have your cake and eat it too.
Thanks.
It really is that simple. So, so simple.
Can't tell if that's sarcasm...but you're welcome.
Not sarcasm... more like trying to convince myself it's as easy as people say when I can see no light at the end of the tunnel.
Sorry if I came off as sarcastic.
this is a fantastic post.
Man, you sound exactly like me right about now. No way you're being selfish, if we had enough money there wouldn't be any problems with owning a place and getting a dog. Like you say though, the world is stacked against us at the moment.
I think a dog can live happily in an apartment so dont rule out places without a garden, youve just got to make sure to get out in the mornings and evenings. I'm also going to be trying to get somewhere as close to work as I can as well to minimise time spent commuting and maybe go back at lunchtime if needs be. I've seen people own dogs with an apartment and the dogs seem happy enough. Obviously though, like you say, good luck finding a place to rent that will let you keep a dog. I've come to realise that the only way I can realistically get a pup any time soon is if I settle into my current job and get myself on the property ladder with something that I own ASAP. I'm basically going to be looking for the cheapest acceptable place I can find once I start looking seriously in a month or two.
Could I earn more if I moved job every two years? no doubt, but obviously that comes at the cost of not ever being settled enough to own a dog. As long as I've got enough to pay the mortgage and put food on the table for me and dog I cant see what else I would have to buy. At the moment my work is paying me enough and the job is good enough for me to work there another 5 years at least (I think).
I will say though, try not to make your parents resent you. The rent you pay with them, even though increased, will surely be less than renting a place of your own. They will also be a bridge you really dont want to burn as they could come in handy in an emergency when you get a dog.
If you dont subscribe to the simple living ethos just yet then I recommend you check it out. Cut all expenditure to the bone and save hard to get your own place. Good luck.
Ditto. There's little else that has any significance to me.
But I don't think having a dog in an apartment is realistic at all. Particularly a cheap apartment. I want to run and take long walks with my dog on a daily basis and I want to go in parks during the weekend. I'm a pretty active guy, I like my computer time, but I love the outdoors as well. I'm not worried about her not getting enough "outside time" no matter what my living situation is. What bothers me is leaving a dog all alone, inside, for hours everyday, especially when other people are around.
I am working towards replacing all my income with freelance work, but I'm not sure how realistic it is for me to expect it's going to work in the near future. The stability of such a lifestyle is my biggest fear. I don't want to drag someone down if I am not stable. At least this goal is completely compatible with the work-myself-into-the-ground mentality I have adopted in the last few months.
I already save between half and three quarters of my income. I live on the bare minimum as much as I can. I am slowly entering the world of investment to try to get my money to grow. I don't expect much at first, but it would be nice to at least beat inflation. >1% interest rates on a bank account is just ridiculous.
Thanks. I know things are looking up somewhat for you. I'd like to know how you did it when/if you manage to pull it off.
I would say its looking pretty positive for me right now, but life always throws unexpected things your way so I'm watching out for that. I wish I could write the whole background of where I am now physically and mentally but really its been an accumulation of all the little experiences I've picked up over the last few years in particular. Living in Canada, living in a van, and now living in the UK has given me a new perspective of the world and what I want out of it. It really changed me for the better.
whats changed for me to make me feel like I'm actually getting somewhere now?
Like I say, when I was in Canada my future was far too unstable for me to get a dog because what would happen if I couldnt make it work out there? Turns out I couldnt (damn oil price crash...) so that was kinda good knowing I made the right choice of waiting. Now I dont have any visa worries I've got that long term stability that I need.
Next up is getting money sorted out. Cant get a dog unless you can pay for it. Im an engineer so thankfully the money is pretty ok, not amazing by any means though (damn I get jelly when americans say they start out on 70k or whatever) but more than enough for me to start working out finances and putting some away each month.
Current job is ok. Not the most exciting or highest earning but its getting me towards my goal and seems to be a pretty safe bet for long term employment, loads of people have been there around 10 years. currently spending about £700 a month on everything including rent, food, car and other stuff. Like I say I follow a simple living ethos so I focus on getting pleasure from not spending money on needless things. I've pretty much given up my expensive hobbies in favour of hiking about in nature. I love spotting me some deer in the local forest, gained a bit of a taste for deer musk last autumn as well...lol. so yeah, putting away about a grand a month for a deposit on a place to buy. Theres some damn good savings accounts over here at the moment that are at least beating inflation, some by a few percentage points so they're good to have.
I'm just going to be looking at studio/1 bed apartments as I really don't need anything bigger and the extra money bigger places cost is just extra time you'll be without a dog. I dont feel bad about keeping a dog shut up in a smaller place for the 8 hours or so at work. I plan to give them a good run in the mornings so they should sleep most of the day and then evenings will just be spent at the local dog area just hanging out. If budget allows I would like to get a dog walker every other day though, gonna have to figure that out when I get there.
this is getting long so I'll leave it there. hopefully that gives you a bit more info about how far along I am and my kind of thought processes.
Thanks for sharing. A "grand" (£1000 is about $2000CAD) a month is also what I'm able to save right now. If I lived on my own, I would easily cut that down by half, although I admit my job doesn't pay that much and I could certainly do better wage wise.
I've been skimming over the apartments for sale just for fun and it's pretty depressing.
heh, I forgot it was like that over there. How the hell can they give you rules like that on somewhere you own? absolutely ridiculous. Fancy sharing a flat over here instead? :P
I dunno what else to suggest really. Our cultures are so close yet so far apart so I can give you ideas but you'll have to blaze your own trail. Keep us updated anyhow.
oops, I should have said "for rent" and not "for sale." 500$ a month never goes to you actually owning anything of course. Apartments for sale are rarely listed under half a million. According to the rule of thumb that the maxiumum value of the real estate you plan to buy shouldn't exceed 3 times your salary, you would need a salary of over 150k to afford it. The average salary is just under 50k.
I am so sick of this.
ah that makes sense. Yeah 99% of the rental stuff over here is 'no pets allowed' as well. I hate renting anyway so if I can get my own apartment I'll be killing two birds with one stone, I can get a dog and I wont be paying rent.
We can get mortgages over here of about 4 times salary but the apartments I'm looking at are only going to be around 100k, hopefully less. Can you not move somewhere else. Toronto maybe?
I'll definitively shop and see if others cities are less expensive when I'm getting closer to making a move.
100k (£?) in the city sounds awfully cheap from what I heard of the UK, but again, I am not living there.
well I'm not in 'the' city but then thats why I can afford to buy someplace :P
I think I've got pretty lucky in the way I've landed on my feet to be honest. Lots of things seem to have come together in a pretty good way which is why I'm trying to seize the opportunity I've got at the moment.
Ok, I automatically assumed "close to work" meant "in the city" hahaha
Well anyway, best of luck to you!
lol! yeah theres other places to work apart from london over here ;)
I'll try and send lucky vibes over your way as well.
Have you looked for jobs that allow to bring dogs? When I'll start looking for jobs I know that this will be high on my priority list... I don't know how lucky you have to be, but there are some articles about this sort of thing getting more widespread http://www.cnbc.com/2015/10/15/more-firms-allowing-dogs-and-other-pets-in-the-office.html
Yeah, I went to a studio that had dogs running everywhere once. It was pretty great.
Hopefully this doesn't come off as too minimizing of your concern, having a dog is nowhere near the challenge many people here seem to make it out to be. I drive past a homeless guy near work a couple days a week and he's got a dog. Not saying it's the most responsible thing in that case... but apart from a way smaller amount of food and medical care than oneself, what is the trouble? Have you budgeted it out?
As to finding a place that allows dogs, that is limiting but possible, and remember you can rent a condo or house from someone (maybe with a friend) and have fewer restrictions and maybe even more pocket money.
And at least you're not wanting to keep a lion, cheetah, horse, dolphin, or something like that, because those are really hard to get a landlord to accept (or a homeowners association, once you're out of apartments and condos).
I don't think you're being selfish, just a little afraid of moving on. Without knowing the details of your situation (how much are you paying your parents, how much do you make, how much do they make, how much is their home worth, etc.) it's hard to comment beyond that.
Anyway, I agree with other advice... get yourself "stable enough" and then move on, with the realization that you're better off than the many people in the world who have nothing at all in the bank, and probably no degree, when their parents kick them out.
Yeah, that is also a reason I feel selfish. I know I am better off than a lot of people from a purely financial point of view.