How can we make zoophilia less of a taboo? (self.zoophilia)
submitted 2016-05-09 22:44:41 by ZenaOBrien
There's so much contempt for it I tell almost no one of my zoophilia. Of course I want this to change but people go nuts if they hear you're attracted to animals other than humans.
I wish I knew the way....
Me too :\ It sucks. This is why we need more reason. People don't use reason today. If you aren't hurting any animals and it's all consensual it should be fine.
Get rid of the people that abuse animals. 90% of the news stories about "bestiality" are about animals actually being raped (usually it is accompanied by child porn charges).
That's a good idea. Yeah fuck those people that actually hurt animals. That's messed up. I'm a vegetarian myself but even though some animals turn me on I would never hurt them. We need a new image for zoophilia.
@ZenaOBrien I hope you are eventually to transitioning to vegan, if not, you are still supporting animal abuse by eating eggs/milk.
@electricfoxx Most news I see on bestiality do not involve animal abuse or there is no evidence of it. I think actual animal sexual abuse is rare, yet, since that always gets reports by the news, it gives a false sense of being a common problem. Along with news calling bestiality abuse even when there is no abuse involved.
Yeah I'm transitioning to vegan. Taking awhile though. Never knew how addictive meat and dairy are. I'm almost there really. I barely eat dairy and eggs anymore.
Excuse me for asking, I don't mean to offend, but how exactly does one get consent from a dog?
It's quite easy to spot a horny male dog. There are many videos on the internet of dogs taking advantages on a human (and even other animals). They just want to hump you. They'll try to jump up on you, grab you with their legs. I think it's fair to say it's hard to not see it.
For females it's different but there I have less experience with. A good signal is their body language. Flagging is when a female puts their tail aside, showing the male dog she's ready. If a female dogs does this to you, you know what she wants.
There are many other signals/body languages that you'll learn when you're together for a long time. But the above is the basic, fool-proof way to figure out what a dog wants or not.
Zoophilia is raping animals. Animals don't actually want to be human's "lovers" they just want to mate and have children. So just because a dog fucks you when you are presenting yourself to make it think you are a dog doesn't mean he wants to be in a sexual relationship with you. If not rape, all zoophilia is at least like statutory rape.
So, if animals just have sex for reproduction, there should not be gay animals out there.
Most animals just mistake a dudes ass for a vagina. That's the leading theory for the cause of gay animals, and it has been proven because lots of animals that were thought to be gay were just as eager to fuck girls and did it more often than fuck the guys. Also, I don't see how this has anything to do with it. Even if animals don't fuck just for reproduction, they definitely aren't that interested in fucking/getting fucked by you.
Not always. Some are gay to show power, but some are gay like we do. "They definitely aren't that interested in fucking/getting fucked by you." How are you so sure? If an animal isn't interested in fucking/get fucked, it'll try to avoid by running, biting, or stuff like that.
When animals are being attacked by an alpha, they submit. It probably thinks you're the alpha, so it lets you rape it.
I just try my best to make people think whenever the subject is brought up. I never quite incriminate myself or make myself look guilty, but I'm usually able to argue a point that at least gets some people to think about things they might not have considered before.
Just having someone rethink what they thought about it is a victory, in my eyes. It's going to be small steps for a long time, but I'm trying in my own little way.
Thank you. You give me a lot of hope.
How about living a life according to the original zeta principles, actually practicing what you preach? How about forming a public picture that can gain some trust in us as a group of individuals responsibly dealing with our quadruped partners? How about disconnecting ourselves from all the folks that clearly are violating the moral principles our whole community is based on? How about tearing down the walls between us and the "normals" instead of desperately defending even the most vile acts and lewd morals? Make it as easy for the normals to deem us worthy of tolerance as we fucking can?
Sounds like a plan.
I believe this is our best bet, but don't pretend it'll make a huge impact. You seem to forget a lot of society, if not the vast majority, is opposed to the sex part in general. They couldn't care less about how we feel or treat the animals we mate with, they hate us based on that alone.
I don´t agree based on my experiences. It´s more true that most people just don´t seem to care much about it or even are slightly sympathetic when your are perceived as a trustworthy and reliable character with a decent and visible love for animals. If the outside world was sooo hostile as it is often claimed by some, how could I have managed to live 22 years with my mare in public stables, visible, often suspected having a sexual relationship, but not even once attacked from anyone? I already expressed in another post: I really believe that some of our community tend to exaggerate things , especially the hostility towards zoophilia. It really isn´t so damn bad to live amongst the "norms" as it is frequently displayed. Most of those who really face severe attacks have contributed their fair share to it by jumping at people´s faces, voicing very illusionary positions etc...and I don´t even dare going to all the truly disturbing behavior some members of our group have displayed...fencehopping, animal fuck parties, the porn issue, etc.
But from my experiences as a German horse zoophile, it really isn´t so bad. Of course, people will start spreading rumors about you if you are totally uninterested in girls (or boys), but that always remained very subdued and civil. I even had a few occasions where people even defended me. As in every other non conformist minority group, the outside world is perceived more hostile and unfriendly than it actually is. At least in germany...don´t know much about being a zoo in USA´s bible belt. There are some folks that are completely opposed to our orientation, sure. But they are usually also the loudest and thus perceived as more important than they actually are. Those loudmouths really want to be representative of society, but in fact are not more powerful than us. As a zoo, be careful whom you tell potentially compromising things, but don´t be scared shitless. All those ZETA members with their full names and adresses available from the internet still live...WITH their animals and without a trial or being jailed.
It may be different in germany, but America is a whole different animal my friend. We haven't even reached the point where being openly gay is safe across the nation, honestly.
Thus, my local perspective may be showing. It tends to be american conservatives however that make comments like the following I will share with you:
"I hope a hunter shoots you in the moment of climax, and you both die a horrible death"
Animal welfare isn't on this person's mind.
We also have some individuals handing out a very "solid" rhetoric, but the German hatemongers seem to prefer the castration approach "..hope you get your dick cut off...", the expectable historic references " ...gaschambers..yadda yadda, Hitler forgot to take care of you..." and the personal avenge mode "If I ever get my hands on you...". Anyway, don´t think too much about it. I sometimes intentionally read a whole bunch of the insults that are sadly often enough very repetitive, but every now and then, I read an actual witty insult I can laugh wholeheartedly about. I guess that´s exactly how we should deal with stuff like this...read it, imagine the person writing it and shortly after that, returning to a real far out weirdo fetish site to jerk off. Take it lightly, don´t let ´em bring you down too much. At least, the insult you´ve quoted above grants you one last climax before you die...not the worst way of leaving this planet, I´d assume...;) See, practice some mental judo/aikido...use the energy that´s been released against you to your advantage. Laugh. It´s healthier than burying yourself under a shitload of negativity. Eventually, you will feel more and more liberated. Fear of any kind is the mind killer.
Honestly: if someone really wants to end your life, he just does it without further ado. Those spitting hate via the internet we Germans call "Maulhelden" (heroes of the mouth), much noise, but no actions.
Oh, it doesn't get to me. It's turned into a dull roar honestly. I'm just pointing out that these individuals are very common at least in the United States.
It's hard to do that when one can't be public, isn't it? Or when one doesn't want other people to be public because it might come back somehow on them.
Certainly I try to do what I can as far as representing the right image, but many people think that hiding "under the radar" is better, and if you hide you are not promoting a positive image, right? You are just allowing all those other people to promote their (possibly less positive) image. I think we talked about this in another thread recently.
Respect is earned and not legislated, but I think the point of the topic is how to build that respect without putting oneself at risk.
I reach out to women almost every day and explain my feelings, then i see if they want to watch. I've gotten quite a few women to become very interested and fans of zoo.
That makes me happy. That's cool.
A lot of women are interested, and most end up adding me on Skype so they can watch again.
That's awesome! I've never heard anything like this before. That's cool.
Basically, live a good life, and defend its ethical practice when it comes up. A lot of the stigma comes from stereotypes and sensational news stories, neither of which paint an accurate picture of most zoos. I've made a lot of headway with my friends by occasionally joking about it and accepting their ribbing while I make fun of their peculiarities. One in particular knows, I think, but he's cool with it, if only because he's got his own imperfections according to wider society (he's probably the most flamboyant gay man I know).
By educating the public on what a "true zoo" is.
I wish there was more we could do to help, but it just to me seems like a losing battle, at least for now. The best we can do is give people the knowledge to make their own choice.
Honestly I think most of you are wrong.
The taboo isn't going to get changed by execrating the animal rapists and abusers (though we should do that anyway because they deserve it on their own merit).
Nor is it going to change by living our lives according to some code of ethics. People will not look into the issue enough on their own to ever even learn about such codes, and those who do live by those codes are not going to be publicized to anywhere near the same extent as those who are caught for abuses and so on.
I think the answer is "visibility" and "loudness". As it stands, most people are still entirely unaware that zoophilia is actually a thing. Furthermore, anything they have heard about bestiality is likely either joking, or negative. People tend to form their understanding of issues at least in part based on how much they've heard certain things. A single voice repeating itself multiple times is actually not significantly different in this regard from multiple voices speaking once each.
With this in mind, I think the largest hurdle that must be faced is that most zoophiles are content to be silent about their orientation. The greatest progress could be made if there was a huge movement towards coming out and explaining what zoophilia means.
However, this is entirely unrealistic, as such an activity would be incredibly dangerous for many people, and would cause a lot of short term misery (by short term I mean societal - would be long-term for any particular individual).
Instead, I think that the things that can be done at this stage are more subtle, but still along the same lines. Engage other people. Discuss the issue. Encourage others to do the same. In some sense it doesn't matter if you win or lose an argument, as long as your voice is heard.
If you can do so safely, come out to others. Let them understand you. If you can, find allies who might be willing to defend zoophila as well, despite not being zoophiles.
Encourage or conduct research on zoophilia. Science is powerful, and holds a very strong voice in our society, and one of the advantages of science is that it is compelled to follow the evidence by design. I'm convinced that science can be an ally in this.
Finally, I think helping with LGBT and Trans* progress would be good as well. Our society is not good at juggling multiple issues, but neither is it good at maintaining the status quo. I think if progress is made on those sorts of issues, it will create a void, wherein zoophilia could have the potential to become the next big issue, thus gaining much visibility, and allowing progress to be made on a large scale, rather than an individual scale.
You opened my eyes.^^^
Although I partially agree on most points you brought up, I like to point out some of the flaws and misconceptions of yours:
First, the openness of outsiders can be influenced by a moral code and conduct according to it. Eliminating the ones who do nothing but openly contradict any claims of harmlessness to animals with their actions is an absolute necessity BEFORE we can even hope for them normals lending us an open ear.Example: If I argue about zoophile morals and the one listening to me is only two clicks away from hard conterproof, I will be considered a lying bastard and accused of justifying my vile actions with logical/semantical mumbojumbo. Don´t underestimate the negative effect all of the porn as a freely accessible archive of "zoophile love" has on outsiders.My experiences of coming out or explaining my orientation to an outsider always culminated to the point on which the person sitting opposite is asking you about your stance on moral issues (like , for example, fencehopping, having multiple animals so you "never run out of pussy" as one of my friends once put it, cheating et cetera). This is a point of debate where you can easily lose them entirely or find similarities in your moral viewpoints that result in increased trust. I had some people that were only okay with my equine relationship because I shared their moral viewpoints; usually it ends up in them saying "Well, you´re basically like me, the only difference is the species you prefer." People surprisingly often WILL look into these issues and form their opinion about you from it.
Becoming visible and loud: Not realistic in a larger scale and also endangering the animals who live in a relationship with the "out and proud" zoo.Highly unlikable to happen and almost nothing can be gained by "zoo parades" and such... On a smaller scale: Yes, plausible. But there also is the impending danger of being perceived as "trying to press it into the normal world". Should be used only in tiny dosage and when a discussion adresses our topic. Let them do the first step or you´ll end up seen as a troll who attempts to enrage others by defending an unpopular and controversial topic. Patience, diligence and good preparation are key things here. When you say that it isn´t important if you win or lose, I like to object your view...it may not be important to leave battlefield victorious, but it IS important and absolutely vital to leave the battlefield with dignity. Even if no one believes you and gives you insults, stay civil and respect other opinions. One reason why I often read hateful and negative comments on zoophilia is that I´m trying to condense a general picture "they" have of "us"...and then totally avoid proving the common ideas from "them" how a zoo is like. It baffles them if their expectations aren´t met, believe me.It makes it harder for "them" to hate us when the zoo "ambassador" clearly shows major similarities in their moral thinking. Don´t be an annoyance, state your points of view, discuss a little if necessary, then leave ´em alone again.
I completely agree that science is one thing to support as much as we can. More research = more credibility for our claims. Although science won´t be a gamebreaker in some more fundamentalistic individuals, it wil surely improve our stance in more moderate folks. But don´t overestimate science as it is dependent from those who fund it. Studies proving the harmlessness of cannabis were available shortly after Anslinger´s ban in the beginning of the last century, but it took nearly 100 years for cannabis to become legal in some states of the US.In other parts of the world, the ban still exists until today, although even more studies backing up the findings of the first one became available throughout the years. Science won´t be our "snake oil", change won´t come overnight and it is legit to say that no one participating in here right now will ever benefit from science. Future generations may.
Finally, the LGBT issue. I hope you know how hostile the vast majority of the LGBT is towards us.I also hope you know that "filling that gap" which you assume to open when LGBT is completely accepted, demanding "zoo rights" would perfectly legitimize the conservative´s "slippery slope" prejudices against homosexuality. "When we allow gay, hell, what are these perverted retards up to next? Marrying animals?" I am opposed to supporting LGBT issues and would rather propose to leave ´em alone, not only because there is huge amounts of hostility towards us from their side; I do NOT demand their support just because both are sexual subcultures. The only thing I demand from them to support them would be not applying the SAME mechanisms of prejudice the themselves once were a victim of and are until today in some parts of the world. This is not about mutuality ("I scratch your back, you scratch mine"), but about some form of respect and showing openness; You just can´t demand more tolerance and acceptance from all when you yourself don´t practice what you preach others. I demand consistent SOLIDARITY. Nobody has to support my views, but being open to a civil discussion would really be appreciated. Another thing to ponder: does the LGBT really WANT our support? How about asking them if they want to be backed up by us "animal fuckers"?
Additionally, I fully oppose the idea that zoophilia will be the next big thing in sex lib. I have said it before and will repeat it. I do not want "zoophilia" to become a "trend" in any way. I prefer it to remain as a "surgeon option"...I´ll explain: YOu´re not allowed to run around, wielding a scalpel and cutting random people. But on some occasions, in certain situations and with the right mindset, it may be right to cut someone with a scalpel. Thus, we created the "surgeons; studied people with lots of knowledge, a pledge to save lives as their primary directive (hippocratic oath) and a possible benefit for all. Becoming the next big thing in sex lib for me is like demanding that everyone is allowed to cut people with a scalpel from now on. Because zoophilia is such a controversial topic, with all the possible abuse you can do due to lack of proper knowledge and malicious intent, I will never support a completely legalized form of zoophilia. You can burst a balloon by inflating it too much...don´t pop our tiny "zoo balloon" by trying to turn it into a full blown blimp.
As to point two: Keep in mind that I did state outright that being visible and loud on a large scale is unfeasible, so we do not disagree there. You are simply restating my own point in greater detail.
As to point one: I don't think what you are proposing is feasible at this point. Pornography exists. It will be shared. There will be animal abusers. Those things will not change. It is no more possible for zoophiles to be rid of animal abusers than it is possible for heterosexuals to be rid of rapists. You cannot expect to eliminate such people, you can only condemn their actions - as literally every other group does as well.
What you are saying needs to be done is absolutely impossible.
They used to say that about putting people on the moon...
I have far more faith in our ability to overcome technological barriers than I do changing human nature. Perhaps one day we'll have the ability to truly get rid of sexual predators and rapists, and on that day I'll put down my five dimensional newspaper, take a deep breath of that fresh Alpha Centauri air, and proclaim my satisfaction with the state of the galaxy.
Don't get me wrong - if you can find a way to do so, go for it, and I would genuinely be ecstatic. But just about every group that has ever existed has tried to do the same, and failed. You'll note that despite how frequently they were lumped in with child molesters, to date, there are still gay child molesters - for all the progress the LGBT movement has made, they made it without eliminating child molestation.
The element of vocal consent is what makes us incomparable to any LGBT movement. The LGBT is speaking out on gay child molesters and expells them from their community, but we remain at a viewpoint that , if transferred to the said issue of child molesters, resembles a "well, if there´s no physical sign of abuse, it´s fine with us" stance. We are much too apologetic. We also fail in practicing what we preach, lots of animal porn is abusive, but our entire community continues to consume it, even welcomes it. I can only point at one particular experience in Beastforum. A friend showed me some "cow porn" with a farmer from germany and a cow tied to a post by a sling around her neck. As the guy was doing his "business", the cow panicked more and more, tightening the sling. She choked herself, mooing in total panic and the guy just kept going at it. All of the comments were positive, one even wrote "You did her good! That slut deserved it". Others expressed their gratefulness from this "thrilling cow experience"...unless we don´t make a clear statement about such terrible things, being equally loud as the LGBT about gay child molestation, we´re getting nowhere. What if the guy you convinced earlier that day, goes home and accidentally stumbles across this video? Do you think anything you´ve said before still holds any value for him? How zoo is it to just say that "it´s out there and we can´t change it´ll be always there"? How zoo is it to still count those in that support such shit by consuming it frequently? How zoo is it to not even try to send a loud and clear message? Just saying "Yes, stuff like that happens, we can´t change it, so it´s none of our problems" will surely make us totally trustworthy...the ones claiming to live for the animals and their wellbeing.
Please don´t compare zoophilia to LGBT. Not one homosexual will fencehop to have sex with the homosexual the neighbor keeps in his garden. Before we zoos will be even recognized by a broader auience, we need to become more calculable to the average person.This can be achieved by introducing a code of conduct and starting to "clean our own front porch" before we demand others to clean theirs. We have to get rid of all those hindering us, keeping us from forming a solid and coherent public image. Without that step, all further steps are totally in vain.
I think the "if there's no physical signs of abuse" statement has more to do with lack of verifiability and assumption of guilt in news stories.
Furthermore, I don't consider beastforum to be my community in any sense. I am quite vocal in my opposition of sexual assault against animals.
If what you are asking for is for the zoophile movement to reject those sorts of things, I am again going to have to say that's impossible, because as of yet I don't think any definable zoophile movement exists yet. Individual zoos can voice their opposition to sexual assault (and do), but it's not their job, any more than it is any individual muslim's job to voice disagreement with radical Islam.
Furthermore, your hypothetical assumes I have no problem with guilt by association. Were I in the situation described, I would conclude that the particular community was horrible, but I would no more extend that to all zoophiles than I would generalize from any other internet community as representative of some larger group.
I think that might be our point of contention here. I do not think there is a greater zoophile community right now, so to my mind what you are proposing doesn't make sense.
Visibility and Loudness is exactly what's needed, however as zoo's we can't do that because, unlike with homosexuals, people can actually take away and kill our partners, and in too many cases that is what happens.
At this stage, unless you're willing to risk never be allowed near another animal for the rest of your life, being "out" is not an option. The best we can do is sneaky subterfuge and plant the seed. In some ways the gay movement helped us out some by proving hetero isn't the only way...on the other hand we got placed as the farthest end of the conservative slippery slope analogy. -.-
Although I agree with most of what you said, I'm reminded of the cross-post from the trans group a few months ago.
Maybe it would help society in general (see the other thread re: human constructs and the greater good), but an almost comical number of LGBT people are fervently hate-filled when it comes to zoophiles, despite having gone through the same (nearly-) exact thing, 60 years ago.
To complement what you said, though, the dilemma is this:
I think finding and nurturing allies is probably the safest approach, with GOOD research from credible sources being a special case of that.
The LGBT community, in my experience, is about the same in makeup as other populations. The difference is they are much more polarized. That is, the anti-zoos are very vocal about it, in order to distance themselves. To put it another other way, we're being actively thrown under the bus.
However, I should specify - while I think LGBT rights are important in it's own right, I think it's also worthwhile in its own right. As long as society is focusing on LGBT issues, it will be harder for Zoos to be relevant. Think about it like a conversation: You can entertain a few different threads at once, but there's a cap to it. Sometimes the best way to get your own topic introduced is to try to get an existing topic wrapped up.
So yeah. A certain percentage of LGBT being fervently hate-filled to zoos doesn't actually conflict with what I said.
Otherwise I agree with the rest of what you said (which makes sense, because a lot of it was agreeing with me to begin with).
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Just do what gays did. Educate the ignorants, raise awareness (by cooing out) and fight collectively against bigoted laws.
Sounds like a plan.