As far as I'm aware, there are only two documentaries with zoos in the spotlight (Animal Passions, 2004; Zoo, 2007), and despite being a zoo myself I'm not sure how effective or informative they are. Perhaps it's because I watched them when I was beginning to question if I was in the same boat, but in both cases, while I did feel a certain sense of sympathy, I was cringing at some points.
JRHNBR - Just the Right Height, No Bucket Required
It might just be me, but I think I'm seeing more and more posts on how zoosexual acts are being outlawed across the world, from Denmark to Ohio, so maybe it's time a new, more up-to-date was documentary made.
So I ask you this: how would you construct a documentary on zoosexuality? What kinds of people would you interview? What statistics would you quote? What rumours would you dismiss, or confirm? Are there any experts you would like to talk with? What about the animals? Could you say anything about them that the world might not know (like how they might enjoy sex)? And finally, and perhaps most importantly, would you be confident enough to speak out yourself?
Of course, I'm sure none of us have the resources for something like that, but for speculation's sake, I'd like to hear what you have to say.
I've thought about this for a while. I think the most interesting thing, overall, would be to follow a long-term zoo relationship, pretty much beginning to end. Find a relatively mature, stable zoo, then watch as they get a dog, fool around, (hopefully) become mates, and then return to check in from time to time as they age and life takes them different places. Of particular interest, I think, would be some of the vet visits, time out in public, possibly zoo meetups if they do that, and eventually what happens when their partners die, and how they prepare and mourn.
Of course, that's not really enough for a full hour and a half, so I'd intersperse that with interviews with experts on both sides of the question. On the pro side, I'd go with Peter Singer or Neil Levy as philosophers, Hani Miletski as a sexologist and psychologist, and maybe a 'zoo activist' like Doug Spink or Oliver Burdinski but hopefully less cringeworthy. On the anti-side, maybe Carol J. Adams or Piers Beirne as activists, Nan Rich or Joe Arpaio as lawmakers, and I don't know who else. I'd also like to interview 'neutral' parties like veterinarians and psychologists for some of the facts behind this.
Of course, I'd love to go into the science and the statistics, but to be honest those fields are just starting with regard to zoos and animal sexuality and social bonding. Also, I don't know how I could go into that without being immediately accused of pro-zoo bias and thus causing the documentary to be dismissed completely. It may be better to just focus on the 'narrative' aspect of the couple involved, as well as the more subjective back and forth between academics.
Also, separately because it's such a tangent, I thought I'd mention a documentary that effectively incriminates its targets by letting them go on in cringey, terrible ways. It's called Chicken Hawk: Men Who Love Boys, and to be fair, what these men do with boys is fucking atrocious in my opinion, especially compared to what we do with our lovers. But the point is that the men profiled come across as so creepy and deluded on their own that, if I thought all pedophiles were like this, I'd conclude that they were monsters too. This illustrates the importance of good mouthpieces for sensitive subjects like this, because you're already speaking to a hostile audience and don't need to help make that worse by seeming almost inhuman to a general viewer.
Animal farm is another one if i remember correctly, and there's also the dolphin one (blackfish? or is that something else??). Honestly, id spend at least a year or two finding good examples of zoophiles, preferably ones that arent currently practicing (Or not show or really talk about the animal, since its harder for your mind to "emphasize" with things that arent right in front of it), I'd focus on persecution, maybe taking a few hints from older homosexuality documentaries. And at the end, id try to show how we already have bestiality going on legally all the time, in the field of animal husbandry, and that opposing zoophilia is hypocracy.
keep in mind, in order for it to be successful, we'd have to focus on what works, not what sounds smart or makes the most logical sense. We're still trying to get on our feet, we can focus on real intelligent arguments when we can get people to actually listen.
One last thing, Maybe if we put together our skills and talents, we can get something at least started.
After all the terrible "documentaries" of the furry fandom, I have little hope for one for the zoophile community.
(If one is going to be made, it definitely won't be in English.)
The issue is that a documentary of this nature would be self-incriminating. So any zoo that would be relatable with good social standing, etc, would be very hesitant to be participant in such a film. If there were a way to remain safely anonymous whilst still being able to portray me as me, hell I'd definitely be down to take part in something like that but you're not likely to see that happening. Similarly, a smaller or indie producer would probably not want to risk taking that kind of criticism, which is why these don't pop up too often.
I personally like the idea of capturing a realistic story, the likes of which have been seen before in the past and it gives a bit of padding from incrimination.
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An option is to use fiction for the documentary.
Follow a real case and study it. Then film it on a stage with actors and fake names. Have some interviews with real people and data interlaced with the narrative. It works for History documentaries. The zoo you are using as a subject will suffer less risks than fully exposing himself.
Use fiction or use reenactment? If it's fiction, it's probably not a good documentary, but it's still possible to pull off something moving or thought provoking. This has been done before, but there's always room for more
I do like the reenactment idea. Nevertheless, there is the difficulty of finding the right person, and that person trusting the author, as well as finding actors able and willing to sincerely pull off the role who feel strongly about the topic for some reason apart from being closet zoophiles themselves.
First problem: both of the documentaries you mentioned in fact aren´t documentaries of zoophilia. While "Animal passions" could still be seen as a documentary about bestiality, "Zoo" is totally fictional although it is based on the famous Enumclaw case of Kenneth Pinyan. Naming this piece of fiction "Zoo" is basically the best example for the common misunderstanding of zoophilia, Pinyan was anything but a zoo; Pinyan had an accident with his motorbike, came out of it numbed and unable to feel anything due to the damage the accident has caused to him. He basically was having sex with male horses so he could "feel something".
I have seen "Animal passions" quite a few times now and always start to cringe right at the beginning, when the protagonists approach a pasture with horses....the eerie "Hello, pretty boy!" , spoken in an undeniably greedy voice, is enough for me to blow the entire "documentary". "Zoo", on the other hand, tells the story of Pinyan, someone whose only reason to participate in animal sex was his need for overstimulation and masochism, his death a consequence of stupidity paired with alcohol and drug abuse.
Both "documentaries" totally fail to portray the life of true zoophiles, instead, they focus on bestiality fetishists. Both "documentaries" are leaving a "normie" behind with more open questions than answered ones. Both "documentaries" more or less fail to paint a coherent picture that cannot be attacked easily by asking a few simple questions.
IMO, what a real and honest documentary about zoophilia is in desperate need of is a neutral point of view, the lack of sensationalism, more honesty from all of the participating parties, way more self criticism of the so called "zoophiles", etc...
One of the most important things in such a documentary: non-biased, non trench fight mentality. Not one of the already existing pieces of "educational" pro zoo propaganda dares to speak out on behalf of all the little and vast grey areas our orientation involves. Animal pornography, involvement in the international porn mafia, fencehopping, "zoophilia" as a substitute for folks unable to get a human partner, "zoophilia" as a part of sado-masochistic practices, the explanation why so much gays are into fucking animals,.....well, basically anything that comes into a normie´s mind when thinking about "zoophilia". An honest docu about zoophilia also shouldn´t focus on the sex part that much. Sure, sex is a essential part, but in all available docus, someone watching will inevitably get the notion that zoophilia is all about fucking animals. Where is the other part of zoophilia in these docus? Where is the infamous four-letter word?
By the way: the technical gear we all can afford nowadays would make it easily possible to record and condense a documentary of our own. Almost anyone has a cell phone with a camera that provides good recording quality, a video editing program can be downloaded for free from public domain websites and dubbing ( in case someone feels more comfy using his mother tongue instead of English) is also not an unconquerable obstacle.
It´s a matter of dedication. If we want a more genuine, non biased, honest and trustworthy docu out there, well, let me quote Fred Durst here..."If you want some done right, you gotta do it yourself..." Although done poorly and with lots of logical holes in their construct, I have to praise ZETA for the fact that they don´t hide, don´t have this "sit and wait" attitude. At least they try....
I´m pretty sure that a neutral docu that addresses ALL aspects of zoophilia/bestiality without any form of denial can be created by the community. A more honest documentary may even be the thing we need to open up towards the "normal" society. The only thing that´s standing in the way is our own complacency, our own fear of touching topics that may look like throwing some parts of our community under the bus, but there´s no gain without sacrifice.
What we also have to take into our considerations: those documentaries aren´t watched by "normies". Most viewers are either zoos/beasties themselves or completely opposed to animal sex and watch stuff like that to gather more ammunition for the crusade against us pervos. It´s ultimately important to create a docu that normies are willing to watch. If we choose to chime into the tunes set by "Animal passions" and "Zoo", we won´t obtain any new reactions other than alienation and distrust for our kind. Without taking a more moderate approach to zoophilia, we will be just another bunch of crazed animal fuckers totally detached from the "normal" world.
One last question: why are all of you so incredibly resistant to my ideas? With all of the evidence out there, you should be able to draw connections and make conclusions yourselves....just try to find out why , with all of the media possibilities, with the docus, the websites, the interviews of "zoophiles" and all the other resources, society hasn´t already embraced our orientation as "the new gay" (like some individuals of our community still seem to expect)?
Without a moderate form of zoophilia lacking any hint of fetishism, of substitute zoophilia ("I can´t get along with humans, so I decided to fuck animals instead"), of being intertwined with the international porn mafia, of easily recognizable anthropo-/egocentrism and misinterpretations of animal behavior , a million documentaries, a bazillion of "zoo" websites and a bingobongozillion of poor justifications won´t change a thing. I told you before and I´ll tell it again: Demanding change from others while deying any, even the slightest change in your own community, in yourself, is just trying to smash your head through a 3 meter thick concrete wall. Won´t succeed.
As I said before: we need another approach, one that hasn´t been used for more than two decades now ("sexual freedom!") and miserably failed. As long as you´ll all place your faith in this antiquated "summer of love" hippieesque bullshit, you are doomed to fail...the world has kept turning since the sixties, you know. Making zoophilia more tolerable to society is no "heads through the wall" material, you need to study human sexuality in general, you need to really understand human and animal sexuality in entirety before you can hope for anything. You need to be honest, even if this means throwing some parts of the beasty/"zoo" community under the bus. You have to be willing to sacrifice the controversial parts of our orientation, like animal pornography, for example. You have to realize that "over the top" visibility with AP and forums like this one here isn´t exactly educating normal people about zoophilia, but is frightening for the normies. Nobody listens to someone he is scared of, you know.
A documentary cannot change anything if the people behind the documentary don´t realize how much weight any little word that is spoken in the docu has for outsiders. Each and every single one of us is an ambassador for zoophilia and every word, every deed, every action, every attitude is seen as representative for all of us and really counts. Much glass has been shattered by amateur docus and the common outward appearance of "zoo" forums like BF.....it´s time for honesty. We want tolerance from society, but we have nothing to offer for tolerance. We just want anything to continue like it is, with all of the fencehoppers, with the ever increasing amount of animal porn, the hookup sections that paint a devastating picture of zoophilia etc...
A coherent picture of zoophilia is needed....it´s up to us to create a new, more honest, more straightforward documentary that won´t make a normie immediately hit the off button. Since I moved to my farm, I have lots of spare time....I have the capacity to do the editing and cutting of such a documentary, but I doubt most of the members in here would cooperate with me "because I´m such a judgemental dick". The concept of an online zoo community has created a counterreality, a filter bubble; I totally understand that letting go old and convenient, but provably wrong ideas is hard....but, folks, just look at where these old ideas have brought us. Not one single step closer to tolerance of zoophilia. When will you discard the ineffective? When will you push the Reset button? It´s up to you....
I don't agree. I think many "normies" are fascinated with outcasts and do gravitate towards these things, to some extent. For example, "Mr. Hands" has become quite a phenomenon, and it isn't because only zoos or "antis" have taken interest in it.
No. It's not frightening, but hilarious to normies. People are not accepting of zoos/bestialists because they are at worse sick animal rapists or at best a total farce. Zoos, I think, tend to take themselves way too seriously, and I don't hold it against anyone here because I am guilty of doing the same. But the fact of the matter is that unless we give a damn good reason to people to take us seriously, they probably won't, and we'll be left with a weird mismatch of the importance we give ourselves versus the importance the rest of society gives us. Honestly, I think such a reason does not even exist in the first place.
In a word WOW regarding your post. Let me ask you how much you know about the actual production and staff that produced Animal Passions? I know because I participated as one of the couples on the program. A lot of material was recorded (e.g., several days worth) that was not included. The participants had no control over the editing of the material. The easiest thing is to take others to task for their shortcomings rather than work on their own. I've read a few of your posts 30-30, it's obvious you have time and experience with equines and present yourself in writing eloquently even if you tend to be a bit overly critical of others. Gee I know someone like that too. smile Animal passions was produced in the fall of 2001 even if not aired until 2004. I'm old, retired and tired these days. My focus now is on my beloved equine companions. I support nine on a modest retirement income and help care for another 7 belonging to 3 others. Best of luck finding those that are willing to place themselves and their animal companions at risk to produce a 'perfect', 'neutral' documentary on zoophilia/zoosexuality. Humankind has a LONG way to go towards a loving, enlightened society. If the past is any indicator of the future it's likely such may never happen...
Oh and that four letter word LOVE? My days are filled with caresses, hugs, kisses and 'I love you's' whispered in the ears of my beloveds...
"The soul is the same in all living creatures although the body of each is different." - Hippocrates
I don't want any more zoo documentaries, I'm not comfortable with visibility as a whole, but I've thought about this a lot. As others have said the issue would be the most responsible, ethical people would not be willing to appear on camera. I know I couldn't. And you can't show their animals either, so what kind of footage are you going to fill up a documentary with?
I'd prefer more focus on the romantic part of the relationship, less about the sex itself, although that can certainly be addressed because it's what people are curious about and where most of the ethical concerns come up. But so much discussion about zoosexuality is sex-focused, I'd like to see something more focused on the romantic side. (I don't actually want to see anything at all, but you know what I mean.)
Miletski has been interviewed in a few documentaries/clips and remained neutral. Noooo to Spink!!
For my "dream zoo documentary" I think I'd like Lisa Ling to do it, she has a few series I really like (Our America, This is Life) that focus on controversial/taboo subjects and groups of people. No matter the subject or person she's interviewing she always does treats everyone so respectfully and does a really great job. One of my favorite TV journalists out there.
But I don't want "zoo visibility" or for the general public to be aware of zoosexuality, I want the opposite. So I have absolutely no desire for a documentary and would rather keep zoosexuality out of any kind of spotlight, no matter how small.
I'm wary as it is in my personal life of others outing me despite my involuntary celibacy at the moment. I don't want a repeat of what happened with my family and friends. Plus someone might harm my boyfriend(figurative boyfriend, no partner in my life just yet)or kidnap him to "save" him from me or I might attract misogynistic attention to myself from those who think that as a pretty girl I should be with a man. Imagine what such people would do to me if they knew I liked dogs and horses "in that way"!