First off, hooray for me typing up a nice comment about a topic I think should be discussed only to find that the thread is locked. I suspect whomever did it had their reasons, likely sound and logical, but it annoyed me nonetheless. That's the censorship part, gotta do my part to fight The Party; eat shit and die(1). I don't think this comment is worth a whole thread, but it's either this or nothing and I want to have this discussion.
Now, on to "porn and doing the wrong things for the right reasons" In the other thread it was commented that a downloader for beastforum had been created and the creators are proud of this. I can fully appreciate feeling elated at accomplishing a technical challenge. It doesn't have to be something world changing or even important, but the feeling of creating something, working with others, and learning more about how to accomplish a task is something to truly be proud of and a sincere congratulations to anyone who challenges themselves to do something new. That said, I don't think the final goal of said project is something to be proud of, to spread more porn to more people doesn't sound like a laudable goal. I do not see it as helping the community and I don't think it sends a positive image(2). I have had personal discussions with some of the creators and I have voiced my dismay at the project in the past. Please do not misunderstand me in this regard, I have no problem with porn (provided it isn't abusive), but I cannot see how taking someone else's questionable porn and redistributing it elevates anyone. Again, I have respect for the people involved and I am trying to understand, ergo this post.
As for it damaging the profitability of BF, that's a whole other problem in itself. I have never vistited BF; I only know of it via rumors, but if BF is such a reviled place, if what they are doing is so wrong, how can doing exactly what BF is doing, but for free, remove anything but the taint of trade from it? I find it still ethically questionable at best.
Lastly, I apologize if this causes any personal mischief for the folks involved. It is not my goal to ridicule, belittle, or disrespect them in any way.
What is being gained here? Am I missing something? Am I perhaps too old and set in my ways? I allow I am in error, that is always a possibibility, so kindly point out any errors you see.
1) If this seems out of place and you're unsure why I am being a dick to the moderators; Ignorance is Strength, bitches. I earn my two-minutes hate.
2) I don't think the creators are compelled to do something I approve of, it's their time to spend as they wish, but the original comment held this project up as something done "for the community", or at least that's how I took it. As such, I wanted to remark on this, but due to the thread being locked I was unable to do so in context of the original thread.
You could have carried out the discussion through PMs, tbf. We've been having alot of trouble with salt lately(and have been getting complaints), and until the elections are up we don't want to carry out any procedures that haven't been officiated yet. The issues you're concerned with regarding censorship will hopefully be addressed in the future. We don't want to restrict freedom of speech, but for people that don't handle aggressive posts as well, inaction is the same as censorship.
If your issue is me and 30-30 fighting, I've decided to take that little thing to PMs and will no longer reply to them publically. As for this discussion, I feel it's productive and I'm hardly defensive on this front, but rather open to criticism. I don't think this will be an issue.
Not just you, it's a general issue that I've seen from almost a quarter of the active community in some capacity. We haven't received any formal complaints about you, specifically. We want to encourage etiquette that will prevent the need for using PMs as having the discussions publicly available is extremely valuable. Right now, we're just doing damage control, using an approach that none of us find to be ideal, admittedly.
Sure I could have replied via PM, but I wanted more input than a PM could provide; I'd have been limited to the thoughts of only those people.
I tried to make note in the post that I do understand why. I had considered not mentioning it at all, but since I had run into it I thought others may have as well and it might prompt some useful discussion in that regard as well.
You can never keep everybody happy. I think that removing posts that are offensive for a fraction of the members is a bigger level of censorship than letting people who can't stand the heat feel offended. Maybe it is due to the fact that I am active in places where moderation is largely inexistent by design and every user is expected to be mature and keep it together at jerks.
I think that having a simple set of non allowed activities (ie off-topics, spamming, sealioning, disrespecting, trolling and not much else) and banhammering them unilaterally when they happen is better than arbitrarily blocking users because they are jerks or make some people feel bad.
By the way, in my opinion, the Zeta symbol thread deserved the lock, not because people were acting as jerks, but because it was being badly derailed.
We do have a system planned that might be able to please both sides, actually. Only time will tell, and it will be involved on the part of the moderators, but I think it will do quite well. The endgame is creating a system that encourages civil interactions without immediate use of force.
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To be completely clear on this, I am not the head of said project. I only helped with breaking a few of the hash functions used to secure the files (which is much, much harder than it sounds, as any good tech knows).
But I do have an ear with the head of the project so to speak, and I've been open to skepticism personally, and would be happy to relay it to him.
As for why I helped:
I feel that since porn is the bulk of their profits, eliminating that profit stream would ultimately destroy their ability to run the site, period. This would ultimately reduce the porn on the internet total.
I really view it as that simple.
The technique that I was hoping would be used would be to create a mirror site that piggybacks their bandwidth directly, thus hurting them even more.
But to be honest, I don't know if that's the direction they are really going anymore. It's been nearly 6 months since my last interaction with them.
To be super honest, I really just wanted something to rub in 30-30's face, and say "I did it." Which was immature. My apologies.
The discussion this has spawned is an interesting one however. I welcome and indeed, want all feedback possible and will relay it when I am able to the project head.
I suspect he's heard my thoughts already.
Umm, seriously? That's like saying "My neighbor plays his stereo very loud, so I'll repeat his music through this PA system and that will make everything quiet".
Porn has been on the internet since it began, it's not going to stop (and I don't think it should). The vast majority of porn, commercial and amateur, has been available, for free, for about as long for those who look for it. I do not see how adding to it is going to reduce it. If BF goes out of business someone else will fill that vacuum because people seek it out and some of them are willing to pay someone to make it easy for them.
I'd like to say that I don't think their technical staff are that incompetent, but I know what passes for technical staff.
I give you credit for at least admitting it; we all do foolish things sometimes. I don't think you owe me, or anyone else here, an apology for working on something, for feeling proud of it, or for bragging about it. You may feel foolish, but that is your problem. :P
A better analogy would be one along the lines of "My neighbor plays his stereo loud, so I will play my stereo loud off an extension cord from his home, thus consuming a lot of power, and making it too expensive for either of us to play at all"
Whether or not this works, is debatable. Afterall, my main concern that led me to part with the project is the one you outlined below, namely the bright orange extension cord in this analogy:
A block of such action would be incredibly trivial, and take years to work around. At most, we'd probably cost them about a whole day or two of competent IT time. We simply couldn't keep up... and that's not even considering trivial means like an IP block.
Actually, at the point I left the project, there was some evidence that new uploads were already incorporating a fix for our exploit.
Part of why I parted ways if I'm being honest, is that reality. I still view it as the best use for the tech, as anything that costs them money even briefly is good IMO, but the utopian image I presented earlier is somewhat unlikely, admitedly.
Again, the main source for this was a somewhat immature desire to show 30-30 something I'd done that is tangible. I really need to stop talking to that guy, he brings out the worst in me.
I've always felt if you don't look back on yourself a year ago and say "man, that guy was a fool!" you clearly have not been making progress. :P
Bah, me and my trailing comments/edits. I had snipped that (partially), but I concur, blocking such action should be very trivial.
Why do they earn your ire more than others? By doing so, do you not feel that you are doing the same to them that OpBeast was doing to us?
He has some good ideas sometimes. It's only when he gets shrill and off on tangents where he's being irrational and just insulting that I think he lowers himself to irrelevance. When he's being logical I think he's a great asset, I would like to see more of that side of him.
They earn my ire because they have and most likely still do, produce abusive videos. They earn the attack by virtue of size: They are a large, visible target.
No, I don't. It's like arguing the mob shaking down some guys shop is the same as some group of people fed up with the mob shaking down the mob-boss. It's not. The group that runs beastforum is based in an area where what they do is criminal, even in their hosting package. Of the few female and animals they produced under their "Caldonia NV" label a while back, all I saw were pretty plainly abusive. I don't know how they continue to get away with it exactly, but I feel no moral qualms about costing them money. I'm not taking away their right to speak. I'm taking away their ability to profit from pain...
...but as I pointed out, this project has about as much of a chance of doing that as a snowball in hell. So yeah. That was all theoretical.
I agree.
I'm not making excuses for them, but this reads almost entirely like what someone would say about most of us. If you object to them I think it is expected to not support them, to speak out against them perhaps, but I find it hard to justifty taking direct action against them without effectively justifying that same action when used by others against us when they object to our, sometimes illegal, and many would argue immoral, actions.
I'm not saying it's OK to make or distribute abusive videos, but I am saying that I think you're getting into murky waters when you take it upon yourself to enforce your beliefs and mete out your own justice.
Worst of all, you are attempting to defeat them by doing what they are doing. You say they are making and distributing abusive videos, so you aim to do better by distributing those videos yourself? This is not logical, two wrongs do not make a right.
You are free to try to change my opinion, but I don't think you are standing on the high ground and I don't think this kind of action is defensible in such a manner.
I'm actually inclined to agree. I already had shakey feelings about the whole thing and was mostly interested in it as a technical challenge I could "sort of" justify on the side as at the very least, being morally neutral/slightly beneficial. I can no longer justify it, I shall not be assisting them further. Your argument is compelling.
Consider my involvement withdrawn, if there was any left.
Of course, my counterpart below will continue to claim that his little "T.S.A.R." group does this and that from the shadows. If I ever hear of them from someone other than 30-30, I'll be genuinely amazed, and also shocked, as what he's claiming their doing is bound to do more harm than good.
Wait a minute...what exactly has Op Beast done to "us"? Kitsunegari tactics worked out just fine and their targets were limited to animal porn sites and annoying "zoos" who felt the need to spread AP on their FB accounts or, like our little "friend" Aluzky, had other stuff to be held accountable for. Not a single zoo cheishing his/her privacy was harmed in any way. So, if you´re not a friend of AP or are bragging/shittalking wannabe zoo craving for attention in social networks, what exactly is it you had to fear? Our * agents provocatuers * tried their best to influence and steer Op Beasts blind activism, one outed himself after he erased his digital tracks, what left ´em in shock and weakened. The other one still is in there, observing and reporting. Like shaking a hornet´s nest and throwing it at your enemies when the insects are really pissed...so fuckin´ elegant.
It´s nice you consider me irrelevant for my , let´s call it , unconventional discussion style. What is worse and renders you more irrelevant, being "shrill" or outright helping one of the worst distributors of animal porn to spill its poison? And isn´t exactly the latter conduct reason enough to lose it once in a while?
I´d prefer comparing the "app incident" to handing out free heroin. Sure, the pusher will lose some money, but when the free supply of smack ceases, guess where those you infected with free porn will go to for "more, more, more"? It´s surely NOT the Salvation Army, right?
How is "free animal porn" less damaging to our public image than animal porn you have to pay for? Can someone please explain? My point is: there should be NO animal porn out there at all, neither free nor paid. Porn never has benefitted us and our community in ANY way, it is immensely damaging our public image and I absolutely fail to understand how one can give free access to porn flics he HIMSELF identified clearly as abusive. Are these flics less abusive when they come for free? Such inconsistencies, such self damaging acts (spoken from the perspective of our entire community) is what makes it hard to keep my calm. Remember that I´m in this for decades now....and shit like this won´t stop happening. Tell me, if you were forced to behold the demise of our community for more than two decades, would you be capable of staying "polite"? I once was, though...I tried it with logical talk. No effect. I tried empathy, I tried keeping things calm and "tolerant"...but, to no avail. Our community definitely has some similarities with a teenager sitting on a horse for the very first time. Sometimes , the beginner gets so absorbed with what is going on in the saddle, he/she won´t listen to a turned down voice anymore. Every riding instructor know this situation and the only solution is to get loud to break through the barrier.
Look, guys, I´ve said it before and I´ll repeat it once again: I won´t profit from fighting for "zoophilia" that much. My world is halfway okay, I have my mares , I have my security, I have nothing to worry about. I could use my precious , little spare time I have for something else, less nervewrecking, more pleasant. I could give absolutely nothing about you, the community or anything else and leave you with the mess you´ve been making on your own. Would be easy for me to push the escape button and say "Fuck ´em! They don´t deserve shit!" But I´m not doing it...and sometimes, even I wonder why I´m not. By the way and before I forget to mention it: it´s not the fact someone of our community fucked up big time with this app. It´s the fact that this person isn´t even getting it and brags about it like this was the deed of a true hero. How often does our community have to endure these fuckups until the learning process starts...if ever? My patience wore out over the past two decades; what is it you expect from a veteran who has been witnessing all kinds of bullshit from our community?
I´ll tell you something.....I´ll be off of here for the next month and you have plenty of time to figure out things uninterrupted by me. I´m bored.Annoyed. Get your shit together, folks! Nobody will do it for you, you have to do it on your own. I guess I´ll start my "vacation" right now and use my time in company of a lovely female who isn´t so goddamn surprised that the guy claiming to be a horse shows the temperament of a stallion...and can handle that. Bye, guys!
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They also attacked furries, and damn near anything animal-like with a tint of sex under the Christmas tree. I seriously don't get how you can claim they don't hurt the culture towards us in general.
I'm unsure if you mixed him up or what, but he was critical of me, and actually convinced me of his argument to cease further involvement, something you have been unable to do due to your... um let's just call it "temperament" for now.
Bye.
I think I made it abundantly clear that the cost of the porn mattered not.
I've asked you this before and you never respond. How exactly are we to exclude the people you see as undesireable? We reject people who abuse animals and show up on the news, yet everyone else lumps them in with us. How have you managed to separate them? It is by discussing these things that we, as a community, can make improvements and guide one-another's growth. It seems to me the only community you see is yourself.
There it is, 30-30 in a nutshell
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This discussion is better off here than in the thread it first appeared in, as it was indeed taking away from that threads original topic, one that I felt too important to become lost. Censorship is a hard tack with a sharp crumb, as my old scoutmaster used to say, and I agree with continuing the discussion somewhere, though even here it's degraded to personalities instead of topic.
I'm not against porn, hell I create it in my writings, but am against seeing the easier obtaining of porn as being anything good for our community. Nor do I believe that we or our efforts have any impact of it's distribution on, nor the operation of, BF. I've been around long enough to know that the average thrill seeker way out-numbers us and our desires.
I am distressed that any one poster here feels they need to prove their efforts to "improve" the community. We're all 'sinners' friends, and we're all gods leading the way... Yet that "proof of what I've done" mentality, ignores the good work of all those who came before.
The synapsis: Porn, and those who demand it, will always be there in one form or another, and the only good we as a community can do is to try to steer the porn producers, and purveyors and consumers, into a clear set of ethical and humane behavior in following their activities. Nor do we need a 'kudos' for doing so...
JMO, uncut and uncensored ;)
Can you elaborate on that? I thought we (meaning everyone) were doing excellent at staying on topic. For my part, I am certainly open to constructive criticism though.
I know, that was fairly childish of me and was not my reason for initial involvement in said project. I'm well aware of that and feel I was somewhat goaded into it, but I won't play the blame game. I will say I am sorry for that, and attempt to conduct myself better in the future. I'm only human.
When you have a dysfunctional vending machine that only accepts dimes and nickles, it makes sense that a frustrated user will topple or derail the system in order to get to the snacks. Accept more expansive facts and stop the accusations of trolling used to block those working facts.
The money is there, pennies or otherwise, just take it. Don't be so picky or too lazy to count them in.
Eh? I have no idea what you are on about, care to elaborate? Accusations of trolling? I am confused.
I'm explaining something using abstraction references.
To make this short an simple... If facts are left out because they're not appreciated or assumed to be a trolling event, we will be at risk of a situation where, "The glass will be half empty, not half full"
Censorship is a boon to working facts, and these facts are part of the whole picture. By censoring them and denying things we don't agree with then we are only hurting ourselves. Underrepresented facts are pinning things down.
However, I agree with you. There is too much porn already, everywhere, and there is too little variation of anything else. All I ever see is porn, and the distributors of the porn claiming... "Deny everything and hide like rats, but don't let that stop you from making more porn for us!!"
It's like a Holocaust, but people can't get their priorities straight. They're too busy producing pornography in the neighbors attic. They treat it like Gestapo every man should fend for themselves. Meanwhile, they're breaking into people's homes and stables to get the footage.
The needs of real people and their lifestyles come first, the porn industry and the producers come later. They don't need any more profit because they're not helping anybody but themselves, therefore I can agree with the creation and conservation of a downloader.
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Annoying isn't it? I feel so old on the internet now. Nowadays if I find a web forum (on any topic) but the admins are obviously volatile, I don't bother signing up and rely on the anonymous browsing. Otherwise the end result is always the same: regret, at the wasted time and investment.
But some places are insidious; and the rules just seem to pop up out of nowhere; or they're just too slow; and you have to spend a good 6 months before you see the cracks in the foundation.
It's all about KISS and if you have too many rules, or too many mods, it usually means you're doing it wrong, web forums intended for adults aren't that complicated.
Of course you are right. It is the difference between one antisocial leadership from another, one antisocial belief from another. There is no difference at all. Some of them take time to show dysfunction, like a friendly love-bombing cult that eventually deteriorates to mass suicide. Others are obviously dangerous from the start, in the way they mutilate and sacrifice their members shamelessly.
It's all about the power and control of any particularly dangerous individuals, without naming any in particular. Their goals are the same, to take advantage of their members minds and bodies without any actual benefit to the members. They are fishers of men. Frauds and scammers. They reel the members in with promise of friendship, love, safety, sex... before changing policy and gutting their members for everything they're worth. It's not about what members want and need, not at all. That's just the bait.
On the internet, it's remarkably easy for small people to get to high places.