Do we want to create standard definitions? (self.zoophilia)
submitted 2017-02-23 09:53:24 by AmoreBestia Pro-zoophile, non-zoophile.

/u/tokenhorseguy got me to thinking about it. Do we want an "assume this unless otherwise noted" set of definitions for different topical terminology? ie bestialist, zoophilia, zoosexuality, and so on and so forth.

They'd have a casual presence in that nobody'd be punished for using their own definitions, and would be there more to keep things cogent in the face of diverse interpretations.

I just thought about bringing this up very, very late at night so I haven't had the chance to talk it over with the other mods yet.

Thoughts?

[deleted] 1 point on 2017-02-23 09:53:54

[removed]

[deleted] 2 points on 2017-02-23 18:47:42

[deleted]

[deleted] 1 point on 2017-02-23 18:47:55

[removed]

OS2Oslov Deer Zoo (non-active) 3 points on 2017-02-23 10:52:22

Trying to get zoos to agree on definitions is like... herding cats. Only a good twenty times harder.

AmoreBestia Pro-zoophile, non-zoophile. 1 point on 2017-02-23 17:10:06

It'd be less about people agreeing with the definitions and more to prevent things being lost in translation. If it happened(unlikely now but eh), I'd probably end up disagreeing with some of the definitions myself, but it'd be easier to convey ideas, at least.

[deleted] 1 point on 2017-02-23 11:05:08

[deleted]

tencendur_ Neeeigh 5 points on 2017-02-23 11:27:24

To be honest, I doubt that "we" exist as an organized homogeneous collective. Besides that point, enforced standard definitions serve 2 main purposes:

  • Avoid misunderstandings between professionals of a certain field of expertise. For example, "kilogram" has a very standard and tight definition that ensures that an astrophysicist in Japan is using the same "kilogram" used by astrophysicists in the US.

  • Reinforce a political identity. For example, modern radical socialists define "socialism" in such a way that it excludes any failed totalitarian left-wing government, so they can claim that socialism was not responsible for their failures (since they were not socialist regimes).

If you are aiming at the second one, be warned that it rarely works very well.

AmoreBestia Pro-zoophile, non-zoophile. 1 point on 2017-02-23 17:04:09

It's the former. Convenient definitions would only propagate further issues.

Zoophile has so many definitions that we can't know what's being said sometimes. It wouldnt be meant to influence personal beliefs, but more so people with different interpretations can understand eachother; some have a more romantic interpretation of zoophile while others have a more sexual interpretation, some are more inclusive while others may only consider you a zoo when you're exclusive. A base that can be easily modulated could be the next level of this kind of thing.

Skgrsgpf 2 points on 2017-02-23 20:44:11

"Zoophile" and "zoosexual" are largely interchangeable (but distinct) terms, with the term "zoosexual" being based on terms such as "heterosexual" or "homosexual". "Zoophile" is more clinical and based more on the paraphilia side of things. These two words ought to be used only to refer to zoos who behave responsibly.

The confusion can be lessened by just saying "zoo", if that's what one wants.

30-30 amator equae 1 point on 2017-02-25 04:22:24

How often will you offer us this rubbish? "Zoosexual" and "zoophile" are NOT interchangable. While "zoosexuality" is just another new buzzword that "luckily" sounds just like what the "cool kids" name themselves, it is nothing more than a bona fide synonym for bestiality. Anybody who has sex with an animal is "zoosexual"; a genuine zoophile, a bestialist for whom the animal is just a fourlegged sex toy, so called frotteurs , even such vile individuals like dog killer Janis Benda is by Miletski´s definition, a "zoosexual".

The word "zoophilia" always was and still is a term that EVALUATES the "zoos" attitude, conduct and emotional involvement; zoosexuality by no means does that, the term was chosen as a completely neutral one on purpose by Miletsi.

The confusion actually STARTED only when people like you do their "definition limbo " game...setting the bar lower and lower in each round.

If self proclaimed "experts" who contributed a very inaccurate "zoowiki" with lots of evidence of complete inexperience not even well hidden in it to the world try to "explain" things, without even reading the original Miletsi text, let alone correctly understanding everything, we´re seriously lost, folks. Skg... wants so much to be a part of the solution that he doesn´t realise how much he and his definition limbo is a true part of the whole problem. Again, Zwqm7, these two words are NOT interchangeable, they´re not synonyms and the only real link between these two is the "zoo-" syllable."Zoosexual" menas nothing more than "has sex with animals"...and that applies to an entire variety, from the most tolerable conduct to the most abhorrend and vile. There are "zoosexual" rapists out there, but you won´t find even one single zoophile rapist because zoophile and rapist exclude each other. If you´re one, you cannot be the second anymore.Rapist? Then no zoophile. Zoophile? Then no rapist.

Zoophile: a person who is sexually and emotionally attracted to other species, often preferring sexual contact with animals over or even excluding any human sexual contact,(Although my personal view leans much more towards exclusivity, as many already know...for a very stringent reason: an exclusive zoo lives in an entirely different world than non exclusives.) I know, the z-word makes beasty pants wet...how lucky you were that some completely unknown researcher with enormous methodical problems in her study incidentally invented a word that, when abbreviated, perfectly takes the original word hostage, fucks it up the ass ten times a day (and those who righteously use that word, too) , kills it, fucks it up the ass another ten times and then throws it out in the open to miserably suffer and die for a second time. If you want to educate others, get educated properly first, Zqwm7. Read the whole thing, not only the fragments that suit you.And please take down this parody of an educational page about zoophilia you created. This entire conglomerate of inaccuracy, fantasizing and parroted info you read elsewhere and understood only rudimentarily is a disgrace...and proof you´re a complete virgin regarding animals, too.

MDCCCLXIIII 3 points on 2017-02-25 08:11:27

In fact, while I agree with Skgrsgpf that these two terms have different origins, I don’t see how they could be used interchangeably. In fact, what we`re dealing with is two conflicting definitions of Zoophilia. On the one hand, there’s the terminology of sexual psychology, which, at least according to the DSM or ICD standards, refers to zoophilia as a paraphilia – alongside pedophilia, necrophilia or objectophilia. Taking into account this definition, it would seem logical to embrace the term Zoosexuality instead to give proof of our community’s commitment towards gaining acceptance. On the other hand, we have the community’s interpretation of the term, which is derived from the Ancient Greek origins of the word Zoophilia. From this perspective, the term „Zoosexuality“ is much too inclusive, making it difficult to distinguish between true zoophilia, rape and other deviant behavior.

With regards to your assertion that „an exclusive zoo lives in an entirely different world than non exclusives“, I am still uncertain what you mean. Do you imply that to you, your sexuality plays such dominant part that you feel detached from what normal people refer to as reality? Or do you think that you’ve reached a higher state of enlightenment merely by having a relationship with a mare rather than with a woman? I’m not like that – I live in a world where my sexuality only plays a minor role. My life is centered around my profession, my business, my employees, my clients. To me, love and sexuality are aspects of my personality which I deal with during my scarce leisure time. Expressing my love for my mare or having sex with a young woman won’t pay my bills, it won’t help acquire new customers, get projects done or settle conflicts among my employees. I feel glad for you if you have more time and personal freedom to act out your sexual orientation. Nevertheless, I’d like you to acknowledge that this does not apply to everybody out there and that leading a life which differs from your elitist standards doesn’t mean that somebody is inferior or less devoted to their animal.

Sheppsoldier 1 point on 2017-03-01 17:14:56

Well, it's very similar to how people use the word "animal" to refer to people of a different race. Racists referring to black people in particular...

Like, hey dog! (Referring to another male human being)

People will also mistake the word "beast" for someone they view as being a disgusting human being.

In drug slang, the word "Horse" means heroin and "Grass" means marijuana. I'm also sure there are people who think that zoophile means "person who loves the zoo, or zoo animals" Or "people who like caged animals'

What happens when people rely on slang used by their own ethnic or hate groups to dehumanize human beings? Complete confusion, false confessions and convictions.

I honestly believe the term zoophile should be revoked and bestiality no longer applied because people are changing their meanings despite any of them being listed in the dictionary.

ZooIam 3 points on 2017-02-23 21:44:38

No group defined by single preference or activity is homogenous in its beliefs.

30-30 amator equae 1 point on 2017-02-23 12:31:40

In addition to the other objections, I´d like to ask what purpose such defining efforts have when there´s no form of authority that prevents misuse? What keeps someone from using the z-word if he doesn´t qualify for its usage? And: is anyone really interested in the truth? Can everyone live with the possible repercussion of not being a "zoo" anymore because his form of relationship is excluded?

Out of experience of being one of those guys that have tried figuring out fixed definitions for zoophilia and bestiality in the 90s, I can say that our community is by far the most "independent"...if you call categorically disobeying, denial and definition twisting independence.

You´ve seen what happened when you created this eerily looking "special club" Zsanctum....all those "uncool kids" banging at the door, shouting "Let me in, dammit!". This is what the "zoo scene" is all about. "I wanna be part of it!"....and for that purpose, definitions are flexed and bended until you fit in again. And if that doesn´t work, another word, "incidentally" almost the same word you don´t qualify for, is created. I´ve never seen anything similar in other sexual subgroups.

Yes, we could try to provide some definitions. But in the current state our community is in, I doubt anything we do will be widely recognised and accepted. The moment when one word in your definitions doesn´t fit one single "zoo", all hell will break loose..."Let me in, goddammit!". What would be necessary for such definitions to matter is authority. Someone who overrules all the pathetic attempts to "zoophilise" fencehopping and animal porn, someone who tells folks the unpleasant and inconvenient truth "You´re not a zoophile by definition, mate". Since most "zoophiles" suffer from the illusion that zoophilia is a limitless sexual playground where you can apply your own, personal set of rules, I doubt that anyone will be impressed to the point where he or she admits to him-/herself "Okay, I´m not a zoophile, but nothing changes and being a beasty isn´t so bad after all".

I´m all for finding fixated and binding definitions. But without an authority that has the power to enforce these definitions onto our community, this is mental judo at best. With Aluzky, Sheppsoldier and Hedonist-Glen, we had quite a few pretty good examples of "Nooo! I´m a 1000% , bona fide zoo!!"...we need an authority that can "excommunicate" those folks or all our efforts are totally in vain. If mathematicians would deal with hard truth and reality like the "zoophiles" deal with it, we´d still be stuck with "Is 2 + 2 really 4? Or isn´t 2 + 3 also 4 and 2 + 2 really 5?" bullshit.

What is relevant here: since all of the "participants" want to be "true zoos" , no matter what attitude and conduct they display, any definition will certainly exclude a huge part of the community from being a zoophile. If that isn´t the case, any definition would be totally useless and we could spare ourselves from the efforts as anyone "is zoo" anyway. You´ve seen what happened with the word "zoosexuality", you see the twisting, flexing efforts that are done to make an artificial word created by some random researcher that even fails in working methodically (validation of the stories Miletski´s been told by "zoophiles") into a synonym for zoophilia, which "zoosexuality" absolutely isn´t.

Everyone wants to be with the "cool kids"...and if you´re not a "cool kid" , you start to pretend you were..."I´m a proud zoosexual!"...well, congratulations for being in the same group with animal rapists and sadists! As far as I am concerned, the two basic words don´t need no expansion, they´re all we need. And in those moments you realise that even BF has stricter definitions of beasty and zoo than ZETA or the entire "tolerant" community, you begin to see where the flaws are...

TokenHorseGuy 1 point on 2017-02-25 01:41:27

Perhaps you haven't noticed that the dictionary defines "bestiality" and the DSM defines "zoophilia" and despite these being valid, well-respected authorities, people use those words incorrectly all the time.

It's not a matter of authority, it's a matter of people voluntarily doing the right thing because it's the right thing. You'd think "zoophiles" of all groups would understand how that works.

Sheppsoldier 1 point on 2017-02-26 00:52:58

Yeah. Zoophilia is a diagnosis when it should not be. Nobody should have to be diagnosed as a psychopath, licensed as a professional, or have any other limiting excuses in order to evade harm and abuse from the law. That's why sane zoophiles can't get away with living their lives in peace. The sexualities of the sane get publicly and judicially executed, gosh forbid they dare to commit the act of "SEX", the worst most vile act that could ever be committed.

People lose their lives over this because they lose their freedom when theyre diagnosed and they lose their freedom if they're not. It's an abusive double standard and the people who abuse zoophiles by this system should be hanged by the chains they threw around our ankles.

30-30 amator equae 1 point on 2017-02-26 19:35:55

Voluntarily doing the right thing? Are you serious? We´re exactly at this status quo, with few people doing the right thing, but lots doing wrong things...and I´m not narrowing that down to misusage of the z-word. Especially those who "shine" with their wrongdoing in public are those who misuse the z-word the most.

I´m recently working on an essay named "Who is James Falabella?" , The demystification of "The Horseman". It´s been a while since I read it , but it only took me to side 96 to remember why your approach, your proposition doesn´t work at all, never has and never will be. But let´s see yourself:

Our "hero", James Falabella a.k.a. Mark Matthews a.k.a. George Willard, a speed addict, narcoleptic, fatty locked himself into a motel room with some paper and a gun to sort out his life. Talking to himself, he unveils quite a few things to the reader.

"Through a combination of frustration and desperation, I had my first full sexual experience with an animal instead of a human; happenstance and coincidence made this animal a horse - and the same lack of socialisation made this my only outlet for four years. Kinsey said that what he referred to as "animal contacts" were really just a form of extended masturbation; someone having sex with an animal was just using a living body the way someone else might use a nude photo and some baby oil. I guess that´s true of me in a way, after I got my rocks off, I didn´t really care much what the animal did. I´d just go find a horse when it was convenient, safe, and I was horny enough to make the extra trouble worth it."

Even after that textbook description of a bestialist, Willard preferred to misuse the z-word, even after his unexpected moment of clarity.

Look, it´s the same problem as with many laws, definitions and rules. Those who are sane, responsible and aware of themselves won´t need ´em, those who are not are the ones in the most dire need of ´em.... Your viewpoint is that of a social romantic and theoretically a nice idea, but as with all ideas of social romantics, IT WON`T WORK THAT WAY. I talked to Willard while he was alive. I confronted him with evidence, evidence from HIS OWN GODDAMN BOOK that he isn´t anywhere near being a zoophile. Guess what...he continued calling himself that even though he couldn´t offer any reason why his conduct should be called zoophilia at all. He never was a "phílos" and I hope my quoted passage from his book proves that beyond ANY reasonable doubt. Without an authority enforcing definitions, all definitions aren´t worth more than the paper they´re written on. And don´t misunderstand me on this, as an anarchist, I´m all for liberty and yaddayadda, but I´m not a social romantic anarchist blind for the fact that this approach needs a different kind of humans that what is insulting this planet with its existence. As long as mankind can´t overcome its worst adversary, the ego, voluntarity is rubbish. That´s just as far from reality as proposing all laws should be abandoned and hope for people to "voluntarily" choose the "right" thing. If this would work, why are there laws anyway? Humans, as many other mammals, are herd animals and ranks (therefore authority, too) are imprinted into their DNA. I´ve been living in an anarchistic community for some months when I was a teen and from my experience with those "freethinkers", I am very certain to state that, without an authority, nobody will do the dishes, the laundry and other inconvenient, annying shit voluntarily.

Freedom is not like "Fuck you, I can do whatever I want", it´s more like "My freedom ends where another one´s freedom starts". Freedom includes being held responsible for what you do, it´s not a wildcard. And if you haven´t noticed yet, the masses of dubious folks using the z-word inflict massive harm to our public image. If you can´t stop people from inflicting harm, what do you do? Yeah, you put up an authority that can hold people responsible for the shit they´re doin´. Humans are not even one tenth as developed and civilised as they think and your idea might work in your dreams of a "better humanity" but when you leave Morpheus´realm, your idea is as reasonable as trying to hang a picture with a cooked spaghetti and a piece of warm butter.

Without an official authority that can interfere any time the z-word is apparently abused, all the words and names don´t mean anything. It took a while until I got my anarchistic ideas and ideals right, but what surely helped me in understanding why anarchism isn´t working with the current "humans" was exactly the way our fellow "zoophiles" dealt with the z-word. Without an authority, these miracle healers would all be "real doctors" in an instant. Without an authority, facts become "interpretations". Look what relying on voluntarily doing the right thing has done to our world...just take a look at what you´re using right now to read and communicate with me. Flat earth, Reptile politicians from hollow earth, "pizzagate", nazi flying saucers on the dark side of the moon (of course with Hitler as the boss of the lunar base...what else?!?)....just look what happens when one relies on "voluntarily doing the right thing"...and just as the denial of media authority lead to an orange skinned baboon in the White House, denial of any authority that defines zoophilia has led to Willard, Aluzky, Spink, etc. pp. Your approach only benefits those who do harm, it hinders those who try to keep zoo things civil and tolerable, the true zoos.

Sheppsoldier 0 points on 2017-02-26 22:37:21

Nobody ever said anything about Bestialists who ride a flying Rhinoceros. Actually, somebody did... Can you guess who it was?

It sounds to me as if "The Horseman" and your hero Falabella has given you the wrong impression. I'm sorry that reading about another person's storybook adventures had such a traumatizing effect on you. Sometimes its better to stop reading fiction as if it was fact, especially when the fantasy is being wrongly applied to reality. I've known people who divorced their spouses because they were following in the footsteps and influenced by the actions of characters from a storybook to do so.

For the sake of integrity, you shouldn't be relying on proofs from novels and "magical beasts" to form your conclusions on what true zoophilia is. Otherwise you would be voluntarily doing something by pretending to be "the miracle authority on all zoophile related issues" and come to believe it in an instant as true. Monkey see monkey do, so what makes it right for you?

Zoophilia encompasses more than one's own demographic and just because a man like Willard or otherwise might have misused the label in association with an action does not make it proof that all similar actions are any less zoophile. It's up to the actor themselves and nobody else to admit or factually have no interest in the animals themselves for the zoophile label to be misused.

However this poses a problem. Deliberately removing a zoophiles choices for the purpose of others to claim the zoophile had "no other choice" does not disqualify the zoophile from the label of zoophile, because the deceptive perspectives of others were wrongly fabricated against the attractions of the zoophile and should not apply. Deceptive behavior and false-proofs by the deception of others can not factually de-legitimize zoophilia. Instead, those people who abuse the zoophile label to de-legitimize other zoophiles are in danger of commiting enough proof to de-legitimize their own zoophilia as a mere weapon or "war on morality."

True zoos are ALL zoos, not just the few who misuse the label for status or destruction of others.

If you want another persons scratch-n-sniff storybook as proof to my claims, I cannot do that. However, you can go read the Bible, Mein Kampf, Alice in Wonderland or a transcript of the reasons for the laws behind zoophilia and bestiality if you so choose. Proof is only as good as the opinion who wrote it and the fanclub, who by some instance of fanaticism fell to believe in it.

MDCCCLXIIII 1 point on 2017-02-27 21:54:18

So you’re currently working on an essay? I’d definitely appreciate if you’d make it accessible to the community as soon as it’s finished. Nevertheless, be warned that your efforts to educate people about the true nature of Willard’s approach towards zoophilia are likely to be in vain. Those who have read The horseman and still don't realize the obvious truth are not going to make an 180° degree turn if you confront them with your essay. Indeed, Willard’s book already features more valid arguments against his cause than you could ever include in your text – every second page gives proof of the hypocrisy which was inherent to his lifestyle. With regards to my personal opinion on the book, I can only repeat how disappointed and disgusted I felt when I read the horseman in 2010. Indeed, my expectations were high – I was in search of a role model, a way of living that I could identify with. I believed that this book would help me deal with my newly discovered passion for horses and give me a realistic view on how a relationship with a mare would feel. Instead, Willard confronted me with disturbing tales about the sexual adventures of his youth and passages such as the one you have cited. Looking back from a distance of nearly seven years, four and a half of which I have been living with my own mare, his story appears even more unrealistic and inconsistent to me.

TokenHorseGuy 2 points on 2017-03-01 15:53:20

You misunderstood my last sentence. What I meant is that zoophiles (by your definition) already voluntarily do the right thing in terms of what you would call zeta rules, etc. Therefore voluntarily doing the right thing and using self-restraint and discipline with words should not be hard.

I did not see a response to my main point, which is that per the dictionary definition, any sex with an animal is bestiality. Per DSM, if you are a person (human-oriented or otherwise) who gets their kicks out of a pathological enjoyment of animal sex, you are a zoophile.

Any other purpose for these words is "abusing the word" as you put it, and is a meaningless interpretation, as you also put it. Notice these words, as authoritatively defined, have nothing to do with motive, orientation, abusiveness, kindness, etc.

Is a new, appropriate word useful? Sure. Re-use a new word from French, German, Latin, Sanskrit, etc. if needed, but "zoophile" is already taken, at least in English.

duskwuff 3 points on 2017-02-23 17:48:26

No. This is not a hill worth dying on.

I've seen this discussion come up on numerous web forums over the years. It always, invariably, results in a flamewar and no progress made.

Yearningmice Zoophile 2 points on 2017-02-23 17:53:13

Seconded.

Besides, it is more interesting to see what the person is thinking of behind the discussion or question than having to refer to the same definition each time.

TokenHorseGuy 1 point on 2017-02-25 01:36:33

If you want entertainment, I agree it is best to leave them undefined, that way nothing will get done other than just arguments and speculation with no foundation.

If you want a discussion which will benefit any objective discipline, such as research, law, philosophy, psychology, etc., then you will absolutely need these terms to be defined objectively. Otherwise, as stated above, it's like using the word "kilogram" to refer to weight in one case, mass in another case, volume in another case, and perhaps color or shape in another.

Obviously progress has not been made in the past, that's not really a reason to not try. People didn't put a human into earth orbit on the first attempt either.

I'm not saying we should or shouldn't do it, just that it will be a necessary first step to getting anywhere.

Sheppsoldier 0 points on 2017-02-26 01:10:50

Some people dont want progress. Progress would nullify the ability to abuse people.

There are actually plenty of zoophiles who prefer to keep the vage definitions because they themselves can get away with anything they want, while the undefined nature of the topic allows them to abuse other zoophiles who cannot get away for their amusement. Yes, so it's like entertainment for people who like animals but hate people.

duskwuff 1 point on 2017-02-27 05:33:52

And how are definitions supposed to make a difference?

Shitty people do shitty things. Arguing about what to call them doesn't change that.

Sheppsoldier 0 points on 2017-03-01 17:25:40

Changing times require new definitions. Racists refer to people of different races as "animals" all the time and it's becomes a chore to refer specifically to actual "animals"... the "Non-human animals that walk on four legs, have a tail, and enjoy squeaky toys, and belong to the (insert Latin classification here)"

Without specific definitions people keep making dumb mistakes on account of their racially fueled hatred for other people.

No different than how people call gays "fags" or change the meaning of "gay" to mean something else.

Ever notice how the website "GayBeast" uses Gay and Beast to refer to something that might not actually be Gay or Beast?

Imagine, you're texting a friend about the 1000lb horse you bought...Next thing you know you have police with a warrant breaking down your door in a drug bust because they mistook it for 1000lb or heroin. Horse in heroin in drug slang. Imagine the same thing would happen for people trying to buy "Grass" for their horse.

White people are referred to as "serial killers" and blacks are referred to as "rapists" as racial slurs. Imagine people are being added to a watch lists and confused with the real serial killers and rapists.

zoo_away 1 point on 2017-02-23 19:17:54

didn't work the last times.

Swibblestein 1 point on 2017-02-24 00:55:47

If you can come up with some definitions that everyone is in reasonably in agreement about, then I say, go for it!

In exactly equivalent words, don't bother, the task is hopeless.

TokenHorseGuy 2 points on 2017-02-25 01:45:33

As I've said in scattered comments:

  1. You MUST have consistent definitions if you're going to have productive, objective conversations (as opposed to opinion-based ones). [If you don't want productive, objective conversations, it is irrelevant.]

  2. The words are mostly already defined, people just need to agree to stop misusing them.

  3. Design by committee won't work.

  4. Maybe it won't "work" in any event, as far as changing the world, but at least people who voluntarily use those definitions will have something to point to.

AmoreBestia Pro-zoophile, non-zoophile. 1 point on 2017-02-25 02:48:45

I agree with this, tbh. Though,it might help to expand upon certain established definitions or add certain conjugations for our purposes, as well.

[deleted] 1 point on 2017-03-07 12:14:49

[removed]