I feel these two issues are often ignored by Zoophiles and non-Zoophiles alike. Anti-Zoophiles don't want to hear what we have to say about crimes and it seems most Zoophiles would quietly sit back while a fence jumper just casually goes about having sex with animals that aren't theirs. We seem even more blind and unconcerned when it comes to real abuse. It's like we feel if we don't acknowledge fence jumping and abuse it'll just go away. As icky and uncomfortable as it we need to have more discussions about this, especially when it comes to the Anti- Community. With the way things are going these days with law after law after law after law after law targeting us we need to voice our opinions now more than ever. If we continue to be quiet then things will get worse for us than they already are and they will continue until it's too late. Because once it's over for us we'll barely be able to organize without being subjected to extreme violence or opposition. Sure we're getting that now but once we are completely and totally demonized to the point that if we were being rounded up and killed in the U.S. no one would care. , well we only have ourselves to blame. So I hope we can find a way to fight for our rights and also won over those who are misguided in their hater of us.
/r/zoophilia archive
Around here, as you've perhaps seen, a large number of people are quite outspoken in opposition of those who go behind animal owners' backs to do such things. What further action do you suggest?
Again, in what forum (or even form) do you propose these discussions would be undertaken? It would be risky to self-identify, and it might appear disingenuous to remain anonymous.
Even this thought seems to generate some amount of contention here.
The way this thread is going, you could've fooled me.
The only good thing you can do for the "cause" is not draw any attention to it. After the repelling of sodomy laws, zoophilia has been largely ignored in large chunks of the world because people simply failed to acknowledge the phenomenon. Fear of stigma urged bestialists for secrecy and the eternal silence of the animal "victims" guaranteed that the vast majority of zoophilic acts got past the radar. Now that it has come in the spotlight again (thanks Internet,) we can do nothing but sit back and witness it being made illegal again. I feel like I've said this so many times before... but I will say it again: in the public eye, we are all abusers. We are all criminals. Even if we break no law, we break nature's law. When bestiality is "committed" by a zoophile, the details of the act rarely matter. The animal is always a victim. People care very little if you raped your dog or somebody else's dog. In fact, I'd wager to say they would care less if you got caught sodomizing somebody else's "property" as opposed to your own, because that way, you would simply have "raped a poor defenseless animal" and not "imprisoned a poor defenseless animal for the sole purpose of raping it every night"...
Virtue signaling helps absolutely no one, least of all the animals. Virtue signaling does not solve problems. Virtue signaling isn't even a proper critique of the ideology or behavior you are speaking out against. Virtue signaling is a cheap, intellectually void trick to try to claim some moral high ground. You think fencehoppers are bad people? Good for you. Meanwhile, 99.9% of the human race thinks zoophiles are sick, evil people. Are you a sick and evil person?
Because animals (non-human animals) have interspecies sex naturally, it follows that it is not unnatural when a human has interspecies sex.
This is true: it is a severe situation for zoos; there has been a rapid growth of new anti-zoo laws in recent years (and no one has been doing anything to stop it).
I am not the one responsible for how people think. I can merely report what people are thinking. And this is what people are thinking.
Be my guest.
I was simply stating that there is no opposition to anti-zoo bills (largely due to the fact that those who would oppose it are hiding for their safety).
I'm pretty sure the majority of us is against fencehopping.
I made a thread about it here: https://www.reddit.com/r/zoophilia/comments/5st8tf/opinions_on_fencehopping/
And there are indeed zoos who support fencehopping.
But it's also funny that they are usually the ones doing it like they're trying to ignore the feelings of guilt. So it's hard to take them seriously sometimes.
And abuse is pretty obvious, we're all against that.
Though, I kind of agree with that.
Zoos really want to get rid of the anti-bestiality laws.
Me too, but they often forget that that could increase sexual abuse.
We'd need some sexual abuse tracing tactics first before we let this happen.
But I haven't seen a zoo ignore abuse really.
Except for underage animals, actually. I've seen threads and comments from way back that go lightly on the rapists that raped underage animals.
Not to mention some zoos support fencehopping, which is close to raping an underage animal since you most likely don't know the animal's age.
I have to point out that these two issues really should be treated as separate. Abuse is.....well abuse. And is (or at least SHOULD be) roundly condemned by anyone who would even remotely consider themselves a zoophile.
Then there is "fence jumping". In my experience and estimation there are many factors that apply to this subject. It is not black and white. I know I may (likely WILL) get criticized for that position, but with all of the gray on my muzzle at this point, be assured that I have been around long enough to understand that there are some circumstances that while technically a person will be intimate with an animal that they do not own, they may have a long term relationship that transcends ownership. And if we all agree (well, ZOOS should agree) that an animal is capable of consent and can decide whether to be sexual and WHO to be sexual with........you can at least understand my position.
Now PERSONALLY I am fully against a person "hopping a fence" only for personal gratification and convenience (EVEN IF the animal is "into it"), but there are circumstances where a caretaker or person who is around the animal a lot which I consider to be a mitigating factor and worthy of withholding a snap judgement.
My sentiment exactly... I find it so ironic to see zoos trying to defend their behavior against a society which almost universally considers it immoral, claiming that concepts like human/animal sex and animal consent aren't as black and white as most people would have them... only to turn around and condemn behavior they don't agree with as immoral, in the most black and white fashion imaginable... Very obtuse, if you ask me.
Since both of these topics seem pretty black and white to me, I'll step up with a counterpoint and see where it goes.
Even ignoring the sexual component, I see deceiving the owner of an animal you care about (with respect to things you do with their animal, for example) as being pretty unethical, and I don't find rationalizations like "we have a bond" or "the animal wanted it" very compelling.
The animal may well want to be let outside to roam free. Maybe they want a different owner or to run to the hills and start a new herd/pack. Maybe your bond enables you to see this with crystal clarity. Nevertheless, this doesn't give a person carte blanche to bring about the animal's every interest in spite of the person who supports and hopefully also loves that animal in their own way.
There may be some crazy exception I haven't considered here, and I don't think black and white is ever 100.0% absolute, all the time... but generally speaking I think the above describes my feelings.
Yes, fencehopping is deception. And I agree deceiving people isn't a good thing. However, I think it's important to keep in mind why there is a need for deception in the first place. If potential fencehoppers were upfront about their intentions, they would run the chance of getting either ridiculed, ostracized, arrested or beaten to death by a mob. Why? Because having sex with animals, according to the majority of people, is evil and unnatural and people who partake in such activities or even simply express a desire to do so deserve to be locked away and never seen again. I don't personally think having sex with an animal is inherently evil. If I were to have sex with somebody's animal, I would do so behind their back. Not because I think what I did was inherently harmful or shameful, but because the repercussions of that person's knowledge of my actions could be catastrophic, for me and maybe even for the animal. And I can smell this one coming from a mile away....
And that... is kinda the point I was trying to make with my first reply. I want to keep an open mind and am not ready to rule all cases of fencehopping as unethical. Some people argue that it indeed is always unethical and that potential fencehoppers should "simply practice restraint and know better than to have sex with other people's animals." But considering zoos are constantly trying to paint a more nuanced picture of zoophilia, fighting an uphill battle against people who view bestiality as innately immoral, trying to taxonomize sexual interactions with animals and differentiate between what is ethical and mutually beneficial, and what is unethical and abusive, I just find this sort of worldview hilariously inconsistent. It's just as easy for someone to say "Bestiality is always unethical. Potential animal rapists should simply practice restraint and know better than to have sex with animals." What about this baseless claim is any less true than the baseless claim made against fencehopping?...
Yes. And we also don't do that, because unless we are dealing with a wild animal, this will probably be detrimental to the animal. Some dogs would happily eat until their stomach burst. And you also won't see me feed a dog enough food to get to that point. Because it is detrimental to their health. Is masturbating a dog detrimental to their health? Hell, is letting a dog screw you detrimental to their health in any way? Preventing them that kind of release may be what is detrimental to their health. Isn't the link between lack ejaculation and prostate cancer well studied now?
I don't know. I just find it very incoherent. Zoos treat sex with animals exactly the same way as they would treat something that is detrimental to the animal's health, yet they swear by the principle that sex with animals isn't detrimental to their health.
For the record, I have hopped the fence myself, according to the definition of some. Given the chance, I would do it again, even take things farther than I did the first time. And I would never feel bad doing it. Why should I? Should I feel bad for petting a person's dog behind their back because it's not my dog, while I'm at it? Guess next time I go to the park, I'll simply refuse to give any attention to the playful pups that come and see me with their tail wagging... Where do you draw the line between what is acceptable and what is not? Is sex with animals bad or is it not? Do we care about what people think about us or do we not? Why does the opinion of the animal's owner (and only theirs!) suddenly becomes so important in people's mind that it thwarts every piece of pro-zoophile rhetoric conceivable?
Jesus. This almost makes it seem like I'm advocating for fencehopping. I'm not. All I'm saying is that it's a grey area. No, zoophiles should not "sit back while a fence jumper just casually goes about having sex with animals that aren't theirs," but they shouldn't thoughtlessly condemn these people either. We've all been cursed with a fucked up lovemap and we'll likely ever be the only friends we get. I don't understand why everybody's up in arms about this.
Edit:
Just read your comment again and I have the chip in one last thing:
You realize this is the EXACT same argument made against zoophilia, right? lmao
That is well said. I too am fundamentally against "fence jumping". But I bet nearly ALL zoos who are reading this have at one time or another gotten close to (emotionally and physically) someone elses animal..........at some point. They just may not want to admit it.
I see a H-U-G-E difference between a person (maybe even a young person who is just discovering their sexuality) who "falls for" their neighbor's dog and has a full-out and years long relationship with her, and a guy who sneaks into a local stable to lift a mare's tail without any motive except getting his rocks off.
I also see a H-U-G-E difference if an animal is known to be "taken" by another zoo........as in lover/companion/mate........and yet still the other person looking for just sex sneaks around behind that zoo's back (VERY bad).
That's a good reason to not fencehop.
If you're so afraid of this, don't do it.
If I lived in a way that I would easily get caught then I wouldn't do it either.
Besides, they don't even have any evidence that it's rape.
It really looks like you're ignoring the fact that it's extremely risky for the animals too.
You should if you don't know about the dog's health problems and age.
But I doubt you would really care about that if you're seeking out to just fuck em and since you would do it again.
Which means there's probably no limit for how many times you will do this. And it's really hard to know information ablut these animals when you do these things over and over again.
Let's just hope you don't get caught now, unless the animal gets no punishment of course.
Except this doesn't involve risks. Especially compared to fencehopping which has a lot of risks.
So, what do people do when they found out you petted their dog? Call the cops, beat you up and euthanize the animal?
And at least you can pet underage animals and most animals with health problems without harming the animal.
Not only theirs, but also others.
Guess what's going on the news that day?
Anyways, it's not only the opinions of humans that matters, but also the health of these animals.
And while the chance is low, what if you're fencehopping a zoo's partner?
I'd say that's even worse than fencehopping a regular animal owner.
Ah yes. Tells us he'd do it again and even take it further, yet says this.
K.
That's because it is a correct argument used against us.
How does this prove anything at all?
If the 'animal wanted it' is a good reason then I'll be collecting thousands of vids just to prove what we do is right.
Yeaaah, no.
Bank robbers are probably afraid of being caught robbing a bank, you know. But they still do it. Because the potential for gain if things go right outweighs the potential negative outcomes if things go awry in these people's minds. I'd argue this is pretty much exactly the same thing. Why do people commit crime at all? Why do people do morally reprehensible things AT ALL? Everything we do in life is a calculus of risk vs. reward, and crime, really, is no different. For fencehoppers, the reward of getting their rocks off with an animal (or getting the animal's rocks off...) outweighs the risk and negative consequences of getting caught. So they do it.
I'm afraid of being hit by a car every time I leave my apartment... but I still get out every day. Reward > risk. That's life. And if you can't understand that reward and risk has different connotation for different people, we have nothing else to discuss (and you should probably grow up).
For people who believe animal can't consent, all bestiality is rape.
What exactly are you assuming here? Risk for the animal is the thing that concerns me the most.
Again, you are under the weird impression that I fucked multiple animals despite having told you multiple times I never did that.
Let me go over every little detail of my "fencehopping" incident so you get a better idea of what happened and how the risk vs. reward mechanism functions in my mind. And remember, you are talking to probably one of the most paranoid person in this community, one who has doxxed people FOR FUN. Do you think I haven't got all my bases covered?
I went to a house party to a friend's mom house. Drank heavily in the evening. There was a dog there, I thought very little of it at first. At one point in the night, my friend chained the dog outside. I was too inebriated to notice anything at the moment. I passed out drunk in a room and managed to get the entire room to myself. The next morning, I was woken up be the yelps of the dog who was right next to my window. I went outside and found her all tangled up in the bushes, she could barely move. I unleashed her and let her inside, again I thought absolutely nothing of it.
Still hungover, I headed back to the room to sleep some more. She followed me. She got on the bed with me. At that point, I noticed she was in heat. And it was at that point I stopped caring about the "right and wrong" of what I did and got more intimate with her.My friend had just chained a dog IN HEAT in the backyard ALONE all night. This is how I rationalized what I was doing. This to me, was enough irresponsibility to give me leeway to commit a little irresponsibility of my own. I used my fingers to massage her labia until her entire body was quivering. That's it.
Now for details.
Health concern? Some would argue not spaying your bitch is a health concern (mammary cancer, pyometra, etc.) Some would argue letting your in season bitch sleep in the backyard all night without supervision is incredibly stupid and may not be only a health concern to your own dog, but for other dogs as well... have you ever seen what male dogs are ready to do to each other to get a female?... Some would argue... Some would argue... Some would argue keeping a dog as pet is unhealthy and all animals should be free to roam the world as they see fit. I'm sorry, but I don't think what I did was an especially big health hazard to the animal.
Age? I already knew the dog had puppies. And she was in heat. If that's not enough to convince you she was mature sexually, I don't really know what else to say. For me, second heat and up is fair game.
Privacy? People were passed out drunk on couches. I had a room to myself. The door to the room had frosted glass panes. I could have seen anyone try to get close and I could have easily removed my hand from her genitals. It's not like I was naked.
Fencehopping a zoophile's animal? lmao. Pretty sure my friend's mother isn't a zoophile.
The only reason I didn't give her oral was because I was really queasy from the drinking of the night prior. Otherwise I would have went down on her. Given similar circumstances again, I'd gladly do it.
You're entertaining some weird cognitive dissonance here. So the ultimate arbiter of the rightness or wrongness of zoophilia isn't the animal's body language? Holy shit. Guess we are all rapists after all.
Except with fencehopping that isn't the case.
If you fencehop, a non-zoo's animal may have a few minutes of fun for a few minutes.
If you do get caught, it's not worth it.
The animal may get euthanized or even spayed/neutered.
That's either because of the law or because of the owner not wanting a sexual dog, getting horrified, etc.
And not to mention you'll either get wounded or you'll most likely end up in jail.
And not just jail, probably the respect you had and your job.
Because that is comparable to fencehopping.
K.
Except we have evidence that that's not true.
From what I've read it looks like you're mostly talking about the owners opinion.
No, you said you'd fencehop again.
That's why I said that.
So what? I think I'm the most paranoid person here.
We can't really prove that but I don't know what that has to do with anything.
I mean, I'm specifically keeping weapons for fencehoppers, antis, doghaters, etc.
...But what are the chances of meeting them? Yeah, that's rare.
So what? That automatically gives you the permission to do that?
How hard was it to keep her inside and stop her from getting fucked?
Except these are rare and not to mention spaying and neutering damages animals on it's own.
We really don't need to go down this spay/neuter argument again.
It's different compared to fencehopping as fencehopping is still more risky than that.
Talk about spaying... What about sex with a recently spayed bitch?
You can damage her vagina that way.
But just like age, these things can be avoided by knowing a lot about the animal you're dealing with, which is hard for a fencehopper.
Duh, don't let that happen.
Another sign of irresponsible owners. Who even lets their dog sleep outside? What a way to seperate dogs.
I can't decide if you agree with that or not.
But let's just say it depends.
Because it's partly true.
A dog can still breed before the age of two.
And heat doesn't mean shit.
How do you know she was 'mature sexually?'
If it's sexual behavior, I guess my bitch must have been magically sexually mature as a puppy.
What the FUCK is wrong with you?
Man, look at the way you said that. Completely careless.
''For me'' ''fair game''
It doesn't sound like you're sure of it or are taking it seriously.
These aren't toys. They're living beings.
Before my bitch even was 2 she already had been in heat two times, so she wasn't even sexually mature. This doesn't mean you can suddenly have sexual contact.
You're not even supposed to breeds dogs before the age of two.
After they hit the age of two, dogs are sexually mature. And for complete safety you should wait for her next heat.
Goddamn I'm not surprised we're compared to pedophiles.
If I'm standing up for our rights just to let shit like this happen, then I've wasted my time.
No really, this is the reason why I hate fencehopping.
Honestly, I think we deserve all the hate we get really.
I'm willing to endure all that hate, but accept it because of people like you.
You'd be extremely surprised how easy it is to get caught.
I've never been caught but somehow people are worrying I have sex with my bitch. How, even?
People will know. People aren't that blind and dumb.
These quick and suspicious movements and the sexual behavior in dogs.
Another sign of irresponsibility. ''Meh, I'm safe for sure.''
You can't really know for sure, although I don't believe that either as she was chained outside while in heat.
But it's another risk of fencehopping that's very serious.
That's not what I meant.
''The animal wanted it'' does not prove anything at all?
It does not prove that animals can consent, which is most people's problems with bestiality.
From my previous post:
I didn't even bother reading the rest.
Sure, if you don't care about going to jail, getting beaten up, lose respect from your loved ones and your job after getting caught once.
And of course the animal's life probably taken away because of a tiny mistake.
All worth it for a quick fuck, right?
If anyone has to grow up here, it's you.
You're refusing to read the rest of my message just because it doesn't go your way.
Well, might I hope that you never ever rape an animal because of your mistakes. Let's just hope you'll learn that under the age of two is always rape too.
No, I'm refusing to read your message because you refuse to accept people may have different values and moral standing than you, which is something very immature. No matter how much we argue, it'll never go anywhere because you think you hold absolute truth and reject any thought that doesn't fit your worldview. I said my piece. I have nothing more to add.
What the fuck are you talking about. Baseless, arbitrary nonsense. I remember a debate between zoos on that very subject a while ago, can't remember were. Some, like you, established an arbitrary age at which animals became "mature" and argued that having sex with an immature animal was detrimental to them. When they were asked to merely produce any piece of information that backed up their claim, they wen't apeshit and accused the other party of being pedos... all the while failing to produce anything to back their claim up. For the sake of principle, I wouldn't do anything with a puppy. I'd let a bitch have her first heat and explore the changes in herself without interfering. But after her first heat... she's an adult. Dogs mate that young. The American Kennel Club lists that sexual maturity occurs between 6 to 9 months of age.
I get it man. You are morally superior to me in every way. Now leave your basement, I think your mom is calling you for dinner.
You're doing the same by refusing to read the rest of my message.
And how is an animals wellbeing and your wellbeing less important than you fingering a damn animal?
Because y'know, I tried to explain the dangers but I guess that's not your problem is it?
I guess I can say the same for you.
I'm willing to change my mind if you'd actually could with facts.
It's one of the things I was talking about in my previous reply you refused to read.
Ah yes, 'The America Kennel Club.' Sure.
A bitch isn't an adult after her first heat. That's the most fucking ridiculous thing I've heard in any bestiality related argument.
Not even kidding, I'm ashamed that we belong in the same group.
Dogs aren't supposed to mate until the age of 2, which is when they're fully grown.
You're seriously fucked up man.
It's not surprising they called you a pedo.
Because if you think that at time they're ready for sex, you'd probably have sex with them at that age.
Irrelevant, makes no sense.
The animal rapists are waiting at the club.
Be sure to lube up well, you wouldn't want to hurt a puppy now would you?
Again, completely missing the point.
Of course. They aren't the experts. You are.
You know, the debate thing was actually a low key way to let you understand these people were unable to come up with any scientific fact to back their claim up. Do you realize you are doing the same thing?
I'll reiterate, because reading doesn't seem to be your strong suit. What evidence are you using to back your claim up? Where are these numbers coming from? Where does the notion that committing bestiality with an underage animal (as opposed to committing bestiality with ANY animal) is detrimental to that animal come from?
"You shouldn't do it because it's bad" isn't fucking evidence.
Pot calling the kettle black. lmao
First off, where is YOUR evidence?
Second, this is something I learned. I don't 'have' evidence like a site or something.
You know very damn well that dogs are fully grown around the age of 2.
Do I have to get all these sites and link them?
If you do it any earlier, you're an oversexual freak who can't wait.
The numbers aren't exact, which is why you should only do this at the age of 2.
You really love taking risks, don't you? Really shows how you don't care about these poor dogs...
Don't worry, some day it'll all happen.
Are you SERIOUSLY asking why raping underage animals is harmful?
Holy shit...
Do I really have to tell you what rape is?
Do you think non-sexually mature creatures know what they are doing when they're discovering these things?
You can't 'teach' sex. C'mon, I didn't know you could go lower than Aluzky...
Tell me, what would make underage human sex rape but not underage dog sex rape?
I'd really like to know why you think so.
You've said it before, so what's your reason?
What is what I do fucked up?
I don't touch underage animals, I don't take big risks for my own good, I don't do sneaky shit behind human's backs.
And hey, I don't even care about humans.
Just did a little research.
Developmental stages of canines, from Mosby's Comprehensive Review for Veterinary Technicians :
Neonatal: Birth-2 wk Transitional: 2-3 wk Socialization: 3-10 wk Juvenile: 10-36 wk Adult: After sexual maturity
(36 weeks is 8 month)
From Introduction to Veterinary Anatomy and Physiology by Victoria Aspinall, Melanie Cappello :
From The Domestic Dog by James Serpell :
From The Complete Book of Dog Breeding by Dan Rice :
And of course, a lot of this is written while pertaining to breeding. Pregnancy is incredibly taxing and of course no bitch should be bred until she reaches physical maturity for that reason. But, as I'm sure you are aware, human/dog sex rarely results in pregnancy.
Again, you strike me as somehow thinking I rape dogs every day. Nothing could be further from the truth. I find your name calling frankly pathetic. Anything to make you feel better about yourself, uh?
Yes, I am. Where is your evidence that it is?
Because humans operate by complex social norms and dynamics unseen anywhere else in the animal kingdom. Having sexual relationships with immature humans has demonstrable negative impact on the social development of the child which usually impacts them late in life. Where is your evidence that such a thing is also true for non-humans? I'm not saying it's good. Like I said previously, by principle I would never have sexual contact with an immature animal. All I'm asking you is to produce evidence to back up your claim and so far you are providing absolutely none.
Well yes. Please do. Please link me all these sites written by veterinarians and other dog experts that tell people not to have sex with their dogs before they turn 2.
Because you are an animal fucker posting on a forum for animal fuckers. A morality pissing contest about which animals are okay to fuck and which are not is at best hilariously ridiculous.
And neither do I.
Where's your evidence that rape is bad for animals?
Your answer is my answer to that.
Any non-sexually mature being cannot consent to sex.
They don't know the concept of sex and are still developing.
So it is rape. If I have to explain why rape is bad, then please consider killing yourself.
I don't feel better for insulting you.
I'm not eve insulting you, so are you trying to hide the fact that you're offended? Well sorry.
Except it isn't the shame and such that makes child rape bad, it's that rape is always harmful to the mind.
It will end in confusion and mental problems.
You're the only one who asks for evidence for this, ever.
I don't need to have read a book to know this, it's what I learned.
The writers of these books must have needed evidence from another book too.
Yeah sure.
Goddamn you're retarded...
You really don't get it, do you?
Dogs are fully grown around the age of two.
You know that their first few heats they're still developing right?
At the age of two, you know for sure that they are 100% sexually mature.
Uh uh uh, I've never fucked.
Also, you find that hilarious like the child you are but this is serious.
It may sound funny to you, but there indeed should be rules and limits to what we should do.
I really shouldn't have to explain why. That would be beyond sad.
Lies right in front of our face even though he admitted it.
Pretty sad.
Okay, I'm done. If your modus operandi in a debate is nothing else than asserting propositions you cannot defend by anything else than your innate knowledge of the universe and hurling insults at your opponents, I consider debating with you a complete waste of time.
I've stated my positions. I've explained my approach to the philosophy of ethics. I've backed my claims with at least some data. The only thing you have done is stating your positions. Surely you can understand why this conversation is utterly one-sided.
No, but I can understand your limited vision.
It makes you believe that the things you said about me, which is sad as they aren't even true.
Very funny from someone who needed evidence that underage rape is bad for animals. What do you think outsiders think if they read this? Probably ready to turn around and never come back. And then read that animals are 'ready' around such a young age, just to be disgusted again.
You're right. It's indeed a waste of time.
The few people who PMed said exactly the same.
Guess they must have had experience with you.
By the way, let me just leave this here...
Just because dogs have sex at a young age in nature does not mean it's right.
Animals also rape in nature, do you think that's a right thing to do? Yeah, no.
In their first few heats, they are still developing.
It takes time to develop and you just can't start having sex from that exact moment.
Because the numbers aren't precise and dogs mature sexually at different times.
Even after being sexually mature, time should be given to get used to their changes.
Not to mention that it can take up to two years for to be sexually mature.
If you'd really care about not raping an underage animal, you'd wait until then.
Oh wait a sec, raping an underage animal doesn't confuse them, traumatize them, fuck up their hormones, cause psychological damage, etc. right?
You really are the only one who thinks that having sex with underage animals doesn't harm them.
If you aren't willing to believe me because I don't 'have' evidence then ask other zoos don't you?
Even Aluzky, Shepp and that one cat rapist we had know better.
And a site or a book isn't evidence. Do you rely on books and sites, always?
Then I'm not surprised that your arguments are so flawed.
At least I can come up with my own arguments and know behavior about dogs.
I find it sad that outsiders can see these posts.
What we all see here is very obvious.
A very lonely guy who wants to use dogs for sex.
There's a reason you fencehop and would touch an animal at young age.
Damn, how hard is it to get your own dog and properly take care of them and don't think about sex until the age of two?
But I thank you for doing all of this as this made me realize something.
I'm not being sarcastic. All zoos are indeed fucked up.
Except for the ones that care more about their animals health and happiness and think that sex is the least important thing.
Supporting zoophilia isn't a right thing to do.
It will only bring more suffering because of people like you who would abuse the shit out of it.
Luckily for me and the animals, humans aren't going to support us ever. Might I hope that some extra action will be taken so that people can be caught.
Even if it means I'd suffer from it, that's better than that animals suffer from it.
What the actual fuck is wrong with you? You realize I have barely ever touched a dog sexually in my life? I did not even break a law! How many times do I have to say it before it gets through your thick skull?
You don't need evidence to back up your claims? "Ask other zoos?" Books written by experts are easily dismissed but your omniscient opinion should not be? Look mate, just because you get a hard on for dogs doesn't mean you are a dog expert. Just because you screech autistically doesn't mean you are right. You want to set an arbitrary limit for yourself? Fine, go ahead. But don't go acting like it's some sort of unquestionable law everyone should follow.
hum... stop projecting.
You live with your mother. As far as I know, you don't even have a job. You play fucking Nintendo games all day. Holy fucking shit. Yeah... most of us aren't that lucky. Most of us actually have to be our own person and figure out a way to work around whatever life throws at us before we can even consider that a possibility.
You have a serious problem my friend. And I can assure it isn't because of people "like me", whatever the fuck that's supposed to mean. You get into pointless arguments with almost everyone here. If zoos disgust you that much, if a (how many fucking times must I say it) NON-ACTIVE zoo manages to trigger you to hell and back, then please, do yourself (and us) a favor and fuck off. Take your holier-tan-thou whiteknighting to beastforum. I'm sure they'll love you there.
I don't think "everybody is up in arms" about this, my reply was only about 15 lines long, and neutrally presented an alternative viewpoint.
Partly, but I think a lot of it is not wanting to be told no.
I won't belabor this point, as it looks like you already made your exit.
Yes, that's why I used it. The reason it's a bad argument against zoophilia is because there are other, valid reasons that go along with this one, supporting it overall. Anyone hinging their decision ONLY on their read of this one factor is missing the big picture, at least in my worldview on the topic.
TL;DR You can't be trusted around anyone's dogs.
I'm sorry, but you don't know me. You don't know what kind of person I am. And knowledge about something I a while ago and my thoughts on the situation don't give you the authority to pretend you know what kind of person I am.
I did something a few years ago. Was it good? No. Was it bad?... everyone says it's evil incarnate, but I've yet so see a single compelling reason why that is. I acted opportunistically. It was curiosity, it was stupidity. Would I do it again under similar circumstances? I can't say I wouldn't.
At least I am honest and forefront about my thoughts and intentions. I don't hide my thoughts and I don't lie to "save face", even if what I say goes against the grain of this forum, because I believe a zoophilia forum is a place for honest discussion about a very unusual and taboo human sexual phenomenon, not a cesspool for self-righteous wankers who want to pretend they are better than they truly are.
I want you to understand what is going on here. People here are exaggerating their sense of moral duty, condemning, libeling and ostracizing anyone who shares a slightly different opinion and in some cases (I wouldn't be surprised) straight up lying so that outsiders (like you) might give them credence. That's it. It's not honest. It's not done in any way out of concern for the animals or the owners. It's absolutely disingenuous. It's the last, desperate plight of a failing cause. I can't even say I blame them for doing it. But for me, being honest is more important, so I don't fall in the trap of this game.
To quote /u/Zeta_Wolf
And this, I feel, isn't too far of the mark.
The thing is, as /u/WarCanine admitted above, "You do realize we didn't know this before? Or at least not exactly as this." In response to you describing that one encounter with a dog who wasn't yours at a party......and where you didn't even actually have sex for dog's sake!......where he STILL condemned your actions. And I'm sure that he'd have BUNCHES to say to and about my stance on this subject too. But if people like him would just stop to think for a moment about how even THEY THEMSELVES respond when they stop the "knee-jerk" self-righteousness and think a bit and learn more of a story........well, then I would have no more trouble getting my point across.
If you didn't get this before, I will reiterate again how very L-O-N-G I have been around. Not to boast or claim I have all of the answers, but just to point out that what I say comes from experience. All you say in your comment above about how zoos "exaggerate their sense of moral duty" in a huge reason why I don't generally hang around these message boards these days.........hell, why I am closer to canines than I have ever been (and conversely distant to my "fellows"). Can you say "species-dysphoria"? Good for you for the honesty. THAT is a most important thing and one I feel is sadly absent EVERY TIME a subject like "fence-hopping" and "altering a dog" and OMG......"what age is OK for sexual intimacy with a dog".
I condemned his actions because it's still bestiality.
Sexual contact with animal = bestiality.
Really, you can't tell me that a dick and finger makes much of a difference when it's about sex.
The one's bigger and the other one is smaller, so what?
Also, I do often ask about their stories in a way.
Note how I ask about the animals information. (Like age)
You don't expect me to ask for one's life story, right?
That's usually a little bit irrelevant and weird to ask imo.
I did not penetrate her. I did not ejaculate inside her. I did not care about my own pleasure with hers only as an afterthought. It was her pleasure that was my priority...
And not only that... but since I never dropped my pants, had I been caught, I could have easily avoided all trouble.
("What are you doing with my dog?" "Petting her."... That's it. A bit harder to say when you are balls deep inside her.)
There is a world of difference between a penis and a finger. It's the difference between third base and home run. For instance, one is illegal and not the other. I'll let you guess which is which.
What I mean that in the end it's still fencehopping.
The risks stay the same, except for STDs but that's the least important problem with fencehopping as it's rare and can also happen with non fencehopping, although the chances increase with fencehopping.
And also getting caught, which is what you said.
And in the end it's all bestiality too.
I know your definition of that is different, but we're talking about my opinion here. And any sexual contact is called sex according to me.
In the end, it won't really matter if the animal is penetrated by a finger or a dick imo.
Even if these things aren't true, I once told a community I fucked my bitch to see their reaction as I was just acting on my urges that time.
Then I said I lied and keep it to oral and fingering, to them it doesn't matter.
They had the same definition of sex like me by the way.
And y'know...
It's quite easy to get caught.
You know that a lot of people suspect me of doing bestiality?
A part of that is because I act 'weird' with my bitch.
My mom also saw her sexual behavior and I've been close to getting caught. Makes sense, because keeping your finger at an animal's vagina isn't really something that happens every day.
So. Will you ever tell me what other risks there are? I've been asking you this question for 2 days now.
Well I don't. Also, Canadian law doesn't either.
Nobody suspects a damn thing in my case. I'm often referred as to the most "normie" of many of my group of friends. I work for the city I live in, as well as other clients. I make decent money, especially considering I didn't go to uni. I go out frequently. Parties, bars, music shows... I drink and take drugs (socially.) I have a bunch of normie friends. I work out, wear quality clothes, get my hair done often, I shave and keep my beard trimmed every other day. I TELL people I'd fuck a dog, straight to their goddamn face and they laugh it off. Hell, I'm sure most people are not even aware I like dogs at all... The only and ONLY thing out of place with me is that I don't date.
I am not worried. One of the things I learned while doxxing people is to not do what they did. For example, my facebook profile picture will never feature a dog. Ever. It's the small things that give it away.
Getting caught:
Cops called on you, which will likely ruin your life. They do not care if you haven't broken the law. They see it as rape as you don't have proof the animal has given consent.
Even in places where they don't have bestiality laws you'll end up in trouble.
Getting yourself hurt.
The animal gets spayed/neutered and even worse, euthanized.
And also your relationship with the animal has been ruined.
I doubt any of us wouldn't be depressed and the animal would miss you too if you go on long enough to make a big bond with that animal.
Harm:
Giving the animal zoonoses or the other way around, although it's more likely if it happens with repeated fencehopping on diff animals.
Raping an underage animal.
Health problems which results in the animal getting harmed. Like you said, sterilized animals if not done right for example.
The more you fencehop, the more the risk.
If there's risk to anything, doing it more almost always improves the risk.
Even I should stop doing anything to her as it improves the risk.
The more I do it, the chances of getting caught will be bigger.
But then again, I'm a very obvious zoo...
Because apparently, these rumors flying aroundt aren't really rumors.
But I wonder though, why does it really matter if it's a dick or a finger?
The only difference about this is that using your dick makes it more obvious if you do happen get caught.
And well, evidence like DNA all but it doesn't change much.
I also meant that most people don't really care. Any sexual contact is bestiality according to them, which is what counts here.
First off, drugs = normie?
We clearly haven't grown up in the same place.
Funny, because you know what country I come from. sigh...
Second, you tell people you'd fuck a dog straight in their face?
I don't get how that's normie either but alright.
I guess you aren't as obvious as I am, but it's not what I really meant.
If they see you with your finger on her vag, things are going to happen.
And it's not like my mom (or anyone at all) is trying to purposely walk in on me to catch me. Well, I guess she did but it was rare and at that point as I wasn't even doing anything.
My point is that it doesn't help much.
The only thing people do is talk about that I'd have sex with my bitch and that I act weird around dogs. They can't 'catch' me because well, they haven't seen me do it.
Is putting my bitch on my FB profile really a very small red flag?
I don't see how that's going to get people thinking.
Because compared to the other things I've put on there, that's nothing.
I know what the risks of fencehopping are. I meant the risks specific to what I did.
Holy shit, welcome to the real world kid. Especially considering the country you come from, yes... Weed is universal here.
"Screwing the pooch" is a common expression here. As you can imagine, I joke about that often.
Small red flag? Holy shit. If someone searches your name on Facebook and gets 100 results, but only one with a dog in the picture, their work is cut out for them instantly.
Well, these are your risks.
Except for STDs most likely, health probs and underage rape.
I know about it.
But I'd say that would at least raise some eyebrows with certain people and if you keep doing it.
I thought we were talking about the people we know irl.
People trying to find you out online is another story, though.
First you'd need my real name too. And hey, let's not talk about that before people start... ehm, just don't talk about that.
I've fixed that.
This makes me think, though... That would be a nice trap to make a fake account that way if done right.
Yeah, I entertained the idea in the past. But ultimately, it's useless if you are careful enough.
Hopefully I don't. Although considering my dog hasn't bitten anyone or mauled anyone I can safely say I don't know you.
Yeah but the following quote doesn't help.
Doesn't really help your case. Although you seem to only like female dogs so I guess my dog would be safe around you but I'm not about to play Russia Roulette with his well-being around someone with your specific mindset either.
Good. At least people now can decide whether or not to leave their fuzzy family members around you. Least you have another lapse in judgment or feel that irresponsible ownership is a green light to fuck a dog.
Yet you complain when others voice their opinions.
Oh I know exactly what's going on here.
Yeah and you're the bastion of all that's right of the in this community. You really think someone like me would be so stupid as to trust someone like you after you admit that you would likely fuck someone else's pet again? Answer honestly if you can, I won't wait up. But as I said I'll take the word of a rational Zoophile over the word of someone who blatantly says they'd go behind my back. Yeah sure I'm an outsider but at least a few of you here don't seem to be following in Aluzky's deceptive self righteous footsteps.
Hmm... Then perhaps this will.
Seeing what you wrote here, I changed my mind. I did. I still don't feel especially bad for what I did. I don't think what I did was bad as far as the dog was concerned. But if people truly see that sort of thing as harmful for the well-being of their animal, I was wrong to go against that. There is truly no good excuse to partake in that sort of behavior...
I feel a bit stupid considering everything I've just been through, but a zoophile could never have convinced me to change my mind. It had to be someone from the outside. Because for zoophiles, the only thing that is ever a concern is the animal themselves and because of that I was completely blind to the other aspects. I see it now.
...
I still don't think the condemnation of zoophiles who do it is all that justified... I was curious. I did a mistake... But I am not a bad person. I'm sure many zoos will go through that and I don't think it's fair to ostracize them because of that. It's a more complex problematic then you may be led to believe, I assure you. For us at least.
Goddamn, now I don't even know what to think.
Edit: By the way, I never "fucked" any dog.
It's one thing to be able to own up for you did but also being able to see it through the eyes of others when you say you'd maybe do it again. The latter was the primary issue.
Hey, I´m so sorry for this, man. I really don´t know what´s wrong with them; you´re the living proof for all I tell ´em over and over again, moderation and adaption, but they still say "It´ll never change the mind of anybody if we show a moral compass". Well, your mind changed and you have a more nuanced view of zoophilia.
I really can´t imagine what else they need to admit I´m not wrong with what I´m trying to get across here in countless posts. I´m desperate, man. What else could I, should I do to open their eyes? I have no fuckin´ clue...
And after that you'll try to pretend this isn't about trying to claim moral superiority and seeking external validation.
Well congratulations 30-30. You made a single internet stranger pretend he's your "friend." Bravo.
Yet and still.......I'm still not sure why YOU'RE labeled the community asshole. I mean why? For what reason? If anything you're trying to bring relevancy to your respective group, you have a strong feeling of how someone like me feels when the topic comes to fence hoping and such. Yet it seems when you or others point out how such things can have highly negative repercussions you're shot down and essentially told to shut the fuck up.
Well you seem like you can't since you think being against the actions that are detrimental to our community is wrong. Oh and you'd fuck someone else's dog again according to what you told Sith. You may not be as bad as Aluzky but you sure are starting to make excuses like him. I thought you we above that. Clearly I was wrong, about you and seemingly a good chunk of the people here. I mean wow what a community! We're losing our rights and we're sitting here arguing over one of the things that is indeed costing u our rights! Causing people to not trust us. It hits close to home because some of my own FAMILY MEMBERS won't trust me alone won't their pets even though I know better than to do anything with them. But it seems those of you who are White Knighting for people to fuck other people's pets behind their backs think that you're doing us all a favor. This is one of the problems don't you get that?! But hey if fucking other people's pets is how we're going to be as a community the why even condemn fence jumping? Hell why don't I just start pimping out my two girls then? Think that's a good idea? Hey maybe I'll just start doing like Aluzky then, I mean why even condemn him at this point? Let's just turn the community into one big goddamn free for all! That way we can just further set back our community and ensure we NEVER get taken seriously of given rights! Will that make everybody happy?!
Go read what I just wrote AlphaOmegaSith.
Your "rights" will never come. Please stop lying to yourself.
Isn't that always the way. TL;DR is a convenient way out of a loosing argument for someone who is self-righteous in their contempt of another's opinion and more importantly, EXPERIENCE.
Wow this place has really gone down hill since the Aluzky fiasco hasn't it?
Because trusting someone who can't keep their pants zipped up around an animal they don't own is such a horrible thing. I guess it's like not trusting a thief. This shit I why I don't actually support Zoophiles, save for a few individuals who seem to understand how the real world works. I have nothing against the rational folks here but the people who want to make excuses for fucking their best friends dog are honestly pathetic. But you wonder why people like me have the opinions that we have. Why we don't really trust Zoophiles(in my cases there's only a few I'd trust). This right here is why. You want to play the oppression Olympics because I'm not practically painting a welcome sign on my dog for you.
If you think that WarCanine is the best example of a zoo, think again. I looked at some of your comments to other reddits. And now that I understand that you are not a zoo (still don't know why you are here though), I have some context about your comments here.
According to what I have read, you plainly have trouble "keeping your pants zipped" around other guy's women. So......do you think that attitude is any different with zoos just because we are attracted to bitches instead of women? WarCanine is safe because from what I understand he is barely sexual at at all (or at least he PROFESSES not to be wink).
I'll say this just once more (in a slightly more strident fashion) for the reading challenged: Even if you "painted a welcome sign" on your dog, zoos like me....and I have to think that we realists and honest persons outnumber the self-righteous and fundamentally dishonest (or self delusional) ones.....would NOT {sexually} touch your dog if we didn't know you and "sneak behind your back" like you seem to think we would. Would I be attracted to your dog? Maybe. But as someone I didn't know I would respect "property boundaries". If you and I became friends would I STILL keep my paws off? Yes, because I would respect "friendship boundaries". Just like (actually, likely BETTER than) with a woman. BUT.....that doesn't mean that I will judge another zoo as automatically "less than" because they gave into lust while youthful and crossed a line. And I have been in situations too complex to go into here with dogs who were not mine long ago where I realized that those boundaries are NOT a simple sharp line like many (including you) make them out to be.
Keep in mind, and this is from many long decades of experience, those who are the most righteous are the ones to look out for ;)
I'm assuming you're complaining about him watching porn?
Hoo boy. Is THAT what you understood from reading my comment? There is a little thing called CONTEXT my dear ;)
That was the context
I didn't say he was but I wouldn't have to leave a note behind in my apartment saying "Don't Fuck The Dog" if I knew him. I could of course be wrong but from what I see I have reason to believe he could be trusted.
And?
Yeah wanting to bury my face in those glorious mounds that belong to Hitomi Tanaka was probably a dead giveaway 😈
I used to post cringe from here on /r/CringeAnarchy. But then Aluzky happened and I took pity on those you who don't make my skin crawl, to be blunt about it.
Mmmm-hmmm.
I don't have a problem with that actually. Yeah Asa Akira is married but doing porn is a profession for her, so having a good wank to one of her videos is hardly cause for concern. Unless you're talking about the comments I make on /r/Thick or other similar NSFW sub-reddits. So while I have no issue commenting on pictures or videos I don't make it a habit of going after another man's woman. I'm a man with needs but I need to result to going after what's not mine in order to get what I want. I'm a bastard sure but I'm not a cheating bastard.
Considering you missed the point? Yeah it's the same but I'm still no "fence jumper" or someone who goes behind the backs of others. Far as I know every woman I've fucked has been single, I tend to ask questions before I unzip my pants.
His preference and that of his eh...girlfriend. If they are more sexual together that's between him and his fluffy lady.
Hn.
Good to know.
One can't be too sure or careful now can we?
Depends on if you like aloof Wolfdogs with a taste for raw fresh venison and casually chatting(ie him walking up to me and howling or yipping) with said Wolfdog once you arrive home from work and taking him for long walks or preventing him from eating the neighbors's various saddles when she greets you.
Seems difficult for most people to grasp these days, that concept.
Good. Not just for the sake of the friendship but your health as well. Kleng doesn't tolerate most people touching him randomly especially near his genitals, he still growls loudly at the vet whenever he goes for check ups and not because he was neutered. He's still intact and I haven't had him fixed yet because I've had no reason to do so. So while I'd no doubt be in rampage mode if someone touched my dog in such a manner I'm more worried about what he would do. I mean if someone is too stupid to understand when a dog is telling you to fuck off then you only have yourself to blame if you're mauled.
I suppose this is supposed to be a witty jab or sarcasm directed at me yes?
Youthful errors are one thing. Stupidity later on is another matter all together.
But will you make excuses for those who cross boundaries after knowing full well that they're in the red?
Oh don't mind me. I'm just the outsider who drops in every now and then.
You KNOW that I cannot help but reply with the obligatory "Ewwww" here, right? I prefer 6 or 8 of 'em......and MUCH less......um..... "moundy" ;)
Oooo, now that's my kind for sure.......the higher the wolf content the better. Of course there is one small issue (maybe TWO).....and it's between his rear legs. Nothing queer about this old wolf's sexual practices don't 'cha know ;) Sadly, right now anyway, my life is such that there are only normal dogs in my pack. Of course I DO love them totally even so :) If what you say is true about Kleng (Klingon-esq or just German?), then you KNOW that it takes a special arrangement to house, keep safe and keep a wolf-dog happy and fulfilled. And I also know and understand that. Maybe someday when I retire to the mountains ;)
So, why worry about fence-hopping at all then? Sounds like 'ol Kleng would take care of himself. Or wait. Are you worried about the power of sex? And well you should be. A "stand-offish" (hell, downright territoriality aggressive) dog is not a challenge at all for someone like me (and there is nothing special about me........I'm just saying that those with experience with dogs who work with and know them deal with dogs like Kleng all the time).
and I said: "And I have been in situations too complex to go into here with dogs who were not mine long ago where I realized that those boundaries are NOT a simple sharp line like many (including you) make them out to be."
To which you replied:
You still don't get it. I won't "make excuses" for those who (let's say) are driving along the road and see a dog out in the yard and approach her with the intent to fuck her and walk away. No. Those people should be locked up. You may not like it, but there ARE situations that are not that black and white. And I guess since you are not a zoo, you will never be able to get it. There are simple logistics. You say you "only go after single women" and that you "ask questions before unzipping" your pants.
EXAMPLE: I guess in fantasy I could imagine a dog park full of "eligible" bitches where a zoo could go to "pick one up".......LOL.......but until then there will ALWAYS be young zoos who fall for the lonely dog tied to a doghouse and neglected who they feed and take care of and where one thing leads to another. It may be "fence-hopping" in strict definition, but if it brings joy to her otherwise dull life and he cares about her (maybe the only one who does), then a rush to condemn him is short sighted and narrow minded.
facepalm You missed the point.
Yep. And it has always been that way with groups which are ostracized by "normal" society. That "wrong headed" way of thinking has ALWAYS been a hallmark of human behavior (just another in a quite extensive list at this point wink) which explains why I am so attracted to canines.......if someone were to care to ask. People who struggle for acceptance will ALWAYS find a group (or sub-group) who is "less than"........which they then use to bolster (somehow......they THINK) their {moral} standing. As if that would make any difference to the larger society which HATES them and what they do. Gays take that stance with US for example. It's almost as if they are trying to say, "Yeah, I love another guy.......but at least he is a human. Not like those who love {romantically} an animal!" It's almost laughable.......in a way.
I just feel that we should be more vocal on the two subjects. It does us no good to not be vocal, even if we only condemn abuse here instead of commenting on every story of abuse on Reddit. I say fence jumping is a problem because pretty much everyone mostly hates us for that. They think we're all in favor of horny idiots just having their way with any animal they can get their hands on. Not accounting for the owners who catch people in the act. I'm from Texas and as you may know the 2nd Amendment is taken VERY seriously out here. What do you think is going to happen if some hops a fence for a dog or a horse or whatever or the owner comes home to find their friend fucking their pet? It won't be pretty and let's face it, no one is going to give a shit if some dog fucker presses charges against someone for assault or attempted murder. Not to mention it'll make us all look like lying sacks of crap who you can't trust animals around. Like /u/peacheslala97 said about us being taken seriously, no one is going to trust or take us seriously if we excuse fence jumping and fucking animals that don't belong to us. Maybe in time people might accept it if an animal actually wants to have sex with us. But for now we take things a step at time and unfortunately that means a tougher stance on fence jumping and fucking the neighbors' dog we babysit. I want to be taken seriously and given my dignity and I can't see how I'd get either of those if I support fence jumping.
This is right.
We haven't even proven that bestiality is right. (Well, we technically did.)
If humans keep fencehopping, we have no chance to prove ourselves.
You're a hypocrite if you want to support zoophilia yet fencehop animals.
You can't really complain about humans thinking we can't be trusted if you do this.
I'm glad that there are some rational zoos who can keep their dicks in their pants and aren't oversexual apes seeking to shag their preferred animal every day.
Sadly it seems trying to be rational here isn't taken seriously. Instead people are rationalizing the very things that discredit our community. It's like if the BDSM community refused to speak out against abuse. Look at how far they've come. People take them seriously now, except for the 50 Shades of Grey thing. The LGBT community has come far now. Yet where are we right now huh? Where are we? Arguing about whether or not it's going to reflect well on us if society still sees us as horny losers, who can't get laid if their lives depended on it so we resort to fucking any animal we can access.
And it's selfish. What if the owners kill the noble fence jumpers' animal lover then hmmm? Is a few minutes of fun and cuming worth getting the animal you claim to love killed? Put down because they think he or she is damaged? Put down because he or she is seen as being tainted? Or put down in spite?
Pure and simple.
Why is it so hard for people to realize that? For us to realize that?
Just being realistic and looking at the big picture. If we want our rights we need to show that we're not the vile stereotypes we're seen as. That we can be trusted, that we can be trusted around othe animals. But if we're going to keep whining about other zoos not hailing the next fence jumping loser as a martyr then we'll never get anything. Especially now that we're losing rights faster than Aluzky can unzip his pants when he's alone with a dog and that's pretty fucking fast.
Yeah. I get all of that. But I think you totally missed the point I was making. I DO NOT "support fence-hopping". But I also understand that it is a more complex subject than black and white. I guess you think that it is.........which is fine but I get so disgusted with all of the self-righteous attitudes I often see among zoos.
I find it EXCEEDINGLY difficult to believe that among PRACTICING zoophiles there is a single one who can truthfully say that they have never been sexual, even in a small measure, with an animal that they didn't own.
As for the "second amendment" BS macho stuff? As I CLEARLY stated (at least I think that I was pretty clear.....if not I will restate): I am totally against trespassing on a persons property. And that would be what I said above: "Now PERSONALLY I am fully against a person "hopping a fence" only for personal gratification and convenience (EVEN IF the animal is "into it")" And once again you missed the point about a relationship with an animal who is not owned. It's a bit more complex than denigrating someone when you have no idea about the specific situation who you point your righteous finger because they are: "......fence jumping and fucking the neighbors' dog we babysit."
In my opinion, we will ALWAYS be doing a disservice to ALL zoos if the infighting continues among our own ranks where we segregate and separate ourselves into 1000 different categories and where there is ALWAYS some self-righteous person who claims to be "better".
Yeah that's what they all say until they get shot at or mauled. Ffs it's not rocket science. You really think someone's going to take kindly about someone fucking/taping their pet? Do you really think things are that easy for you guys? Are you at all familiar with property defense and self defense laws?
Why do you think? Because people like me don't trust people like you. I mean I'd trust WarCanine and the other few rational Zoos here but the rest of you? No way in Hell am I trusting you around my dog. If you can prove that you can be true then fine. Otherwise you can count on being mauled for "fence jumping/trying fuck/rape" someone's dog. Because I can guarantee 100% that's what would happen if someone tried to go after my in dog.
❔
[deleted]
I had a feeling would still attack me even after I took my leave. Sure is easy to libel someone who isn't there to defend himself. Normally I wouldn't really have cared, but this is just a gratuitous attack against my person and I have a hard time letting it slide.
I'm lost for words. I'm not even kidding. Aluzky offered his dogsitting services to people, was most likely paid money for his "work" by people who trusted him and all for the sole intent of getting in contact with dogs who he let fuck him and who he fucked, film the interaction and upload it to the Internet for people to wank to. In case you didn't know, there are dozens of such videos.
To be not only compared to him, but be found "worse" than him? I'm speechless. I'm not even insulted, as the comparison is so far off the mark. We argued against him alongside each other, remember?...
I wish you fall in love with a dog that is not yours, Jayson. I wish you feel what it's like to know you will never be with them. I wouldn't wish this upon anybody, but for you I'll make an exception.
I'm not attacking you just because you're gone.
I agree, I shouldn't have done that but I'm just saying what I think.
I didn't mean your actions are worse than his, but rather your thoughts.
He's careful with the animal's age, you are too but I clearly don't agree with your opinion of what's old enough.
I take that VERY seriously. But there's no point in arguing over that anymore.
Though, his thoughts may be more fucked up because it's right to fuck everything in sight. What do I know?
I have fallen in love with other's dogs before.
Also, notice how I can't have 'sex' in your definition.
For someone who isn't that sexual, I still have had similar thoughts like yours.
Thinking about fucking a bitch who's big enough...
And I always wanted to know what it's like to have sex with a male one, too.
Somewhere in my head I keep thinking this and go a little crazy because I can't have the sex I want.
But I keep myself from cheating on my girl and not accidentally raping a dog or hurting them.
And of course, all the other risks involved and not traumatizing the owner.
Trust me, there was a point I didn't have my bitch and still had my zoo feelings around.
Thing is, I will never act upon it.
So your wish became true in a way. Enjoy it.
He hopped the fence a hundred times. If a fencehopper has no information on the dog he's with, don't you think he exposed himself to these kind of situations? He had sex with sterilized animals. Do you think a dog who has been sterilized as a puppy is any more sexually mature than a puppy? Spoilers: He isn't...
You're 18. You've had your dog for over 2 years now?... I was 22 at the time. I didn't have a dog. I knew I wouldn't have a dog for years still. It's been years, in fact and still no dog in sight. I never had any sexual interaction. Ever. And no matter what you may believe, I too am not a very sexual person, and am certainly not a devious person. I never took a risk. Hell, I never even contemplated doing it. But looking back, there were a few times in my life I could have. I too am torn by these desires I cannot satiate. Companionship, affection, intimacy, sex... I am torn every single fucking day of my life. I've gotten to the point where playing with a dog at the park for ten seconds is enough to make my head spin on my shoulders.
That morning, I was there. All the stars were aligned. Everything was perfect. I acted opportunistically. I admit it. I didn't do the right thing. But no one was hurt. No one was traumatized. We both had a lot fun. Now I'm being ostracized and attacked even by other zoos for having done what I did. And in the name of what? So that people like AlphaOmegaSin can see how much of a good person you are?It's insane.
I remember him saying that he knew these dogs.
I don't have evidence of it as I can't remember where, but I asked him back then.
I didn't even know this.
But I remember you saying you did the same with a stray, or it has been someone else. I have no idea.
But still, how do you know that bitch was sterilized as a puppy?
Seems common sense that most people do it at young age, but I know a bitch who has been sterilized when she was around 1,5. So it happens.
I guess that's another reason to hate him then.
One year off (or few months, rather?), but nice guess.
I don't know what you're trying to say.
Am I supposed to be happy? Is that it?
Should I be thankful?
I'm not. I lost my love feelings after all the negativity in my life.
I don't have it better just because I have her.
I still suffer from the feelings of not having 'real' sex.
Hell, I don't even enjoy the little sexual contact we have.
I'm not asking for sympathy, but I'm just not as lucky as you think.
I am under the impression that I have been depressed all this time.
Be happy that you at least enjoyed your sexual contact.
You do realize we didn't know this before?
Or at least not exactly as this.
You understand why we do this right?
It's not to make ourselves feel better, we genuinely believed that your actions were wrong.
Put yourself in this situation. I'm doing bad things, what do you do?
I imagine that you wouldn't have any respect for me.
You probably wouldn't be as aggressive as me but I'm going to admit that I became a bitter person because of things that happened in my life.
I didn't do anything with the stray. I told you. I didn't even think about it. She showed no interest, and neither did I. I was so glad to have her close to me, I didn't even care about sex. And if she even had her first season at the time, she certainly didn't have her second. She wasn't a puppy, but not far from it.
Are you serious right now? You've just went apeshit at me for not agreeing with you that the "2 year limit" had any substance, but what you concern yourself about when somebody had sex with an animal who had their sexual organs mutilated out of their body is the age at which the procedure was done?
...
Do you want me to cry or something?
What negativity? Did you get cancer? Did your entire family die in a car crash? Get off the fucking computer. Get off the video games. Go enjoy life. Do you have any idea how much a bunch of people here, myself included, would like to be in your situation? You are EXCEEDINGLY lucky.
Yes. I understand enough. You want outsiders who come here to see how pure little angels you are because you only fuck your own animals. Wow.
Define "bad things".
I didn't know before that he did this, I told you.
What's wrong with having sex with a bitch who's been sterilized?
Again, I don't really know much of the details...
Do you want me to go back to Aluzky or something?
No thanks, I wouldn't talk to a human who'd fuck anything in sight anymore.
No, I want you to realize that you're not as unlucky as you think.
I'm not happy with what I have.
And if we're talking about sex... You enjoy it, I don't.
I don't need sympathy from anyone. It actually quite bothers me.
A part of that is personal reasons.
But I have been traumatized as a child most likely.
And not to mention I've always been a fearful and paranoid person.
And being a zoo doesn't help either.
I always get bothered by this.
I don't play that much. Not since I got her.
I go outside, I go try to enjoy things with her, I try to do stuff that I like.
I won't feel real love towards her anymore. Nothing will change.
Not lucky because I'm not happy and lost the feeling of love.
I'm not lucky because others have it worse.
Because then, you would also be lucky. "What about the kids in Africa?"
What makes you think that's the reason?
I don't gain anything from that. I just support what I think is right and am against things that I don't think are right.
That's up to you.
You may think something is bad, but I don't so I perform that 'bad thing', for example.
You wouldn't have respect for me either.
Or... that's what I think as most people are like that and it makes sense.
Apart from the fact they will likely not enjoy the interaction, lots can go wrong. The dog's internal physiology has been altered. Without the proper hormones, everything down there will shrink. If the vet didn't do a good enough job or if the scar didn't heal properly, you have the potential to cause a great deal of damage.
Of course there are exceptions. I've heard of some male dogs till being able to mount and knot even after being neutered. I'm sure some females may still enjoy some contact or tolerate other forms of sexual play. But the fact is, the internal organs have been permanently altered and weakened from that operation. It's a grey area. I'd argue it is a way more precarious situation than having sexual intimacy with a bitch at her second heat or masturbating a dog that isn't yours. (Goddamn)
Have you considered that maybe you aren't a zoo?
Just seeing the attitude that's on display here, I'm pretty much convinced that this is what is going on. "I find it sad that outsiders can see these posts." Okay. Yeah. I don't give a fuck about outsiders. They will never be our friends. And anyone who thinks otherwise is completely delusional. I'm gonna do a full post on that, actually. And after that I'm gone from this place forever. For good this time.
Well honestly it's not a grey area for me.
If you do it carefully, no harm is done.
Which can be said for bestiality in general.
For years I've had this attraction.
Occasionally I do feel real love towards her but as soon as I'm depressed, stressed, scared or sad that love is immediately gone.
And even if I don't feel love towards her anymore, I do feel love for a fictional character and another dog. Pretty sad, I know. But I can't do anything about it.
If I'm not a zoo, I still am the closest to being zoo instead of an asexual.
I keep telling people the same here.
AmoreBestia is really convinced that zoophilia will be accepted. It actually bothers me.
But you know, we as zoos try to at least make the best impression.
Not to mention, look at AlphaOmegaSith.
He's most likely 50-50 on our actions but absolutely despises fencehopping.
Notice how he's only here to apologize and when somebody talks about fencehopping.
But still, you're right in some way.
People will never accept us. The world will end before it happens.
I'd always like to make the best impression to antis.
I'm still deciding if I'm wasting my time or not by doing that.
Oh my god, you are such a fucking rapist. Do I really have to explain to you why having sex with an altered animal is wrong? You are so fucking retarded. Kill yourself you fucking piece of shit. I am ashamed to be even considered in the same group as you. All zoophiles are absolutely disgusting and fucked in the head. I hope you get caught and stoned to death by an angry mob you fucking disgusting excuse of a human being.
That's how my conversation with you went. Just letting you know.
Trust me, that was obvious.
But yeah, you can feel like that even if you don't rn. I don't care about people's opinions anymore.
A good reason to not support zoo anymore.
Are you fucking kidding me?!?! The more I hear about him the worse he gets. Lying to people is one thing but THIS is an entirely new level of depravity and deception! Not to mention what feels like theft.
I wouldn't have been bothered. I stumbled onto this latest horror show.
Worse? Worse than Aluzky? I don't think I wanna read that.
I take it back.
So ignore this, if you will...
Umm ok then
I noticed how you are quick to answer my points one by one.......EXCEPT of course the ones you would have trouble answering. I said:
Any thoughts there?.....and be truthful now :)
I guess you read TWO different comments by me and still missed it. I am TOTALLY (can I bold that so that you will be sure to read and understand that.....LOL) against sneaking around on someone's property to screw their dog (or horse or whatever). EVEN MORE SO if a would-be "fence jumper" KNOWS......or even suspects that the animal is owned by another zoo. I have never done either of those things, BUT I have had relationships in my EARLY years with dogs who were not mine (family members and close friends and other situations NOT as you described above).
As for "trusting me". LOL......do you think that I give a whit (hell, HALF a whit) about whom you trust? Actually, you would be ASTOUNDED at the number of people who "trust me around their dog". And who's trust is well founded because I have a great deal of gray on my old muzzle at this point, am in a happy relationship with my pack's alpha bitch and do not "mess around" these days. That doesn't mean I am insensitive to how others view a relationship that they might find themselves in with someone else's dog (ESPECIALLY if they are young and just discovering their sexuality).
The problem with many people here is that you are young and too close to the situations you are so self-righteous about. I have the benefit of seeing from a long stretch of years. Of course I understand the protectiveness for someone you love. I would say that same thing about anyone messing around with my dogs......just not all macho and only in the correct context as well! Just between you and me and the fence post, I think at least some of that self-righteous attitude may stem from personal guilt about one's own behavior ;)
I think you seem have mistaken me for a Zoophile according to the last part of your comment.
OK.....my bad. But you have to admit that someone taking time to comment on a thread like this sure could easily be assumed to be a member of the community here. And sorry, but if you are not a zoophile then in my opinion you cannot be considered to be that. An interested and respected outsider with a different point of view worth listening to? Sure. But not a member of the community.......which is what I assumed when answering your quite hostile reaction to my comment which I STILL contend that you either didn't fully read or at least comprehend due to blind preconceived ideas about {other} zoos. Of course your comment now makes better sense :)
As far as trusting zoos with your dog? LOL.....you are sure to disagree and of course don't know me or how I make my living, but I gotta say that of all of the zoos that I have met over the years (and how hypocritical I've seen them be), yours truly would be the very best choice for "being true"..........as you say ;)
Nope I'm just a random outsider leaning towards the anti position but holding no ill will towards those who seem genuinely concerned for the wellbeing of their respective......partner.
However I still see no problem with me adding my opinions from time to time.
Nothing wrong with that :)
Good to know
I'm back after being away over a month, mourning the loss of my grandma and nearly losing Bobby and this place has gone straight to Hell in no time. Maybe I should've stayed gone :(
Something that might help the nuance here would be to define exactally what you mean by fence hopping. The term is relatively meaningless since it has been repeatedly used to lump anyone "realitively normal" in with trespassing rapists by those who only see black and white.
It also completely ignores the concept of animal agency and the question of animal ownership.
If you break the law to get your fix (stealing, trespassing, violence,etc) then I can pretty confidently say everyone is gonna have an objection to your behaviour or at the least should have one.
I also find the characterization of "most zoos" by the OP to be wrong as others have pointed out.
Fence-hopping is "trespassing". Trespassing is "Entering an owner's land or property without permission." If permission is given for an action, common sense tells us that the action cannot be fence hopping.
It doesn't matter if a person messes with an animal that does not belong to them, as long as the owner of the animal makes the decision to give that person permission. No third party has any right to make claims for the owner of the animal or their property. Twisting "fence-hopping" into a broad reaching category is a perversion and abusive obscuration, with no other purpose than to impose false accusations against others against the will of the animals owner. It's a two-faced abuse of zoos and animal owners.
When people obscure the true meaning of fence hopping and trespassing to mean "everything I don't agree with," that's no different than anti-zoos making claims that all animal sex is rape just because Anti-zoos don't agree with the sex. Anti-zoos are not involved and they do not belong, just like zoos do not belong making decisions for other zoos. Clearly other people's sexual habits are none of their business. Intruding on and making claims of trespass for other people is essentially an act of trespassing.
When permission is given, permission should be defined by a length of time the permission is valid. If a person states that you have permission for a single for time, then permission must be regranted for every following occurrence. If permission is stated to be recurring, then permission is granted indefinitely, or until permission is revoked.
Nobody gave anybody permission to incorrectly define fence-hopping, and nobody should be abusing it as a method to revoke the rights of zoos against the will of zoos.
Another thing about fence hopping, how do you know the animal you are having sex with isn't having sex with it's caretaker? Who may possibly have an STD that the animal can transmit back to you? I mean, given the amount of people who do not even know they are zoophiles (as in sought out community, identity, etc.), and so many of us who are very closeted, even online...we don't even really know how many of us there REALLY are and given the fact that I at one point knew of 3 zoos all living within 3 miles of me, do you really want to take those chances? Or if we reverse the situation, I'm sure the other zoo/caretaker doesn't want to catch anything another zoo might have either. So there's that to think about as far as ethics go, it's not like you can take your dog/horse/whatever to the vet and get them checked for human STDs they may be carrying in some other zoo's still present sex fluids.
THANK YOU! Thank you! Thank you so much for saying this!
No matter how much we say this, fencehoppers will always find excuses for it and will keep doing their thing.
Dangerous zoos are stubborn and ignore the dangers.
Probably one of the biggest reasons zoophilia is fucked.