I'll start by saying, I am NOT a zoo, not even a little, albeit, I was constantly chastised as being into bestiality for the big dogs I kept (neopolitan, english, bull, mastiffs and newfoundlands), and the draft horses I had, because of my deep connections with them, along with my refusal to have any of my male animals "fixed". I'll also say too, I do not think bestiality is wrong if it's not done in such a way that would cause pain, trauma, distress, or any other negative reaction from the animal in question, such as being forced to do something they obviously are not wanting to do in a steed fast way. I know animals, like humans have a sex drive, and quite often do want to have sexual satisfaction like we do too. Many a time I seen my Clyde-stud masturbating out in his pasture, and so did everyone else. So what? I was told I should geld him for that "behavior"... LOL, then with that logic, every man who dared make that statement (probably out of subconscious jealousy LMFAO, lets be real here..), we should be lopping off balls every time they pop open their browser to porn. I always thought it was also funny too, that the boys were the one's who got picked on (in the equine circles), but the mares, those nasty harlots who'd jump fences (or try to!), who had pigeon toes, a U-neck, and all other sorts of undesirable traits beyond going after any and every stud they could while in heat, when I'd say "why not fix that nag, when she's the one displaying the same "behavior" and actually destroying property, and becoming aggressive and unmanageable", I'd be met with "well... I might breed her to -insert well known stud in the mare's breed/discipline here- some day." When the mare in question is a genetic nightmare.
(I'm female BTW) While I am usually vocal and against sterilization of animals, I do agree with it in the most RARE of circumstances, regarding their health and well being. I am fine with female sterilization, ONLY if it's ust a tying tubes job, and not a full blown hysterectomy, and too, I would consider, but still have my reservations about vasectomy's with male animals... I'm not sure why this isn't more common, rather than fully stripping them of their "male-hood" and what I believe God gave them, or "female-hood" with it REALLY screwing with their natural hormones.
I am also very against the way it's done to so many animals, without any kind of sedations, or so much as a local anesthetic. People literally take day old piglets and rip their testicles out with their teeth, or pliers after making an incision. With Foals, or bull-calves, I know it's done when they are a day old to weeks old, where they'll have tight bands around their' testicles until they drop, or have a bag placed over their heads, man handled, and have their testicles removed in an un-sterile environment, with zero anesthetic. Hell, I'm even against what they do to human infants, with circumcisions, which has more odds the infant will DIE, than ever needing to be circumcised for any reason later in life.
What's your views on this? I've been lurking here for a while out of curiosity and to see if my opinions of bestiality (being as described above) was actually just, or not, and figured I'd ask a question to see what your opinions on this are.
May you all have a blessed day with your four-legged companions, whom I hope you are treating well (and think, from the posts and comments, at least MOST of you are doing so).
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Thanks and don't worry, I do my best to keep my cat happy :)
Looks like we agree about this subject. Neutering only when life or health is clearly threatened and vasectomy when you don't trust your animal and for sure will not want offspring. I wish I knew about this option few years ago... Maybe I would be able to change my parents mind and my cat wouldn't be neutered. Why pet owners are not informed??? Are most vet's lazy or it's about politics?
Your house might be covered in cat pee though since hormonally intact male cats tend to spray, lol
It's she and we have never had a problem with urine outside a cat litter box (ok, she used to do that in flowerpots at first, but that was a short period).
Neutering is a pure american obsession.
In Europe, there isn't so much neutering, and some countries even ban it.
In Poland unfortunately it's pretty common.
In France to... But I agree that Americans seem to be obsessed by it... I heard that it was illegal to have a non neutered dog/cat in California, it makes me sick.
Neutering is not so common in France.
It seems more common in town, but out town most domestic animals stay unfixed (except for horses).
SPA and many refuges neuters adult stray animals they capture, but most of non-adult stay intact.
I agree with the above. I know a lot of people who think hormones make animals hard to work with, to which I say, that's the human's fault, not the animal's. Or if someone thinks unaltered animals are really too hard to manage, don't get that animal.
That's just logic, nothing to do with zoophilia.
To me, this has always been extremely horrifying to me. Of course, I have my reasons for it.
Most of the time, humans have extremely dumb reasons to sexually mutilate their pets.
It's just that you're doing this against their consent. They depend on you and you should be able to make the right decisions.
You take care of them so you shouldn't do anything like this. This is exploitation, as it's only in the human's favor.
It's a myth that animals will end up better, because they don't. Animals may even become more wild or energetic for example.
And keeping their hormones intact is also a good thing, too. I'm pretty sure it also increases certain diseases, so even if it decreases a chance of diseases (that already have a low chance of happening) it adds new dangers at the same time.
With the same logic, you might as well remove other body parts because they can also cause certain diseases.
If you don't want to have an animal with such urges, you don't get an animal. That's like saying you don't want to feed them.
No, it's your fault. The human must change, NOT the animal. If you don't like it, just leave them alone.
If you don't want your animal to have offspring, then you keep an eye on them. If you can't do that, you don't deserve an animal.
As a bonus, I think zoophiles have an advantage there. I mean, we help them with their sexual urges and my girl is even uncomfortable with other male dogs who tried sexual stuff with her that she even protected her vagina with my body.
It's quite horrifying to know that any animals found on the streets will be spayed / neutered. Think about it.
I sometimes am so scared that my girl somehow ends up on the streets and gets sexually mutilated against her will. It really scares the fuck out of me.
These humans are lazy, and if they really have to stop their animals from having offspring in very rare situations, they should consider vasectomies on their animals at the very least. Although I would prefer a little more ethical option: Keeping such animals apart.
Their logic kind of lacks, as they don't neuter / spay themselves. Because you know, humans are even MORE overpopulated than humans? Not to mention if it really gives so much benefits why don't they do it to themselves either?
I myself actually feel uncomfortable near spayed / neutered animals. It feels as if they are some sort of chimera and deep inside I tell myself that I want to stay away from them. It just doesn't really sit well with me. I hold a grudge towards humans who actually let this happen and support it.
I just like the more natural animals. It's good and healthy to keep one's body natural.
Honestly, spaying and neutering should be banned everywhere this instant. There will be only one way to spay / neuter your animals and that is when you have a damn good fucking reason for it. You'd have to fill in some important papers, unless it's an emergency.
A good example would be if it proves fatal to their health and HAVE to be spayed / neutered to be healthy / alive.
That said, I think we should be more strict on breeding animals. (And of course, for humans too.)
With a society that is so against having sex with animals and being obsessed with natural stuff, I always thought it was so weird that they even think it's a little bit right to treat animals like that.
But eventually I got the answer, and that's just that the vast majority of humans aren't properly educated about animals and are sheepy. Their feelings play a big part in that.
I really wish the sheep didn't suck all the vet's dicks, because I've had some arguments with the neuter nazis and their reasons are apparently: ''hurr vet saiz it is 109% true''
I actually dislike vets for this reason. That's how much I hate this bullshit.
Poor creatures...
Around here I better have a damn good explanation if I decide to neuter/spay my dogs because I will get questions. There's no reason to do it so why would I, unless it's absolutely needed for whatever reason.
OP, as a non zoo maybe you can tell me why is this kind of thinking so rare among most animal owners?
Inconvenience. People don't want to deal with dogs having heats, training intact males not to mark/to stay away from females/etc. With dogs anyway, most people just don't want to put in the effort to properly handle, contain, and train their animal. Hormone-charged behavior is viewed as a nuisance.
There's a lot psychology in it too. Horses have it even worse. I have been uninvited from trail rides and gatherings because my guy is intact. I have even been told that my control of him isn't the issue, that others will lose control of their horses if a horse with nuts is present. He's had cops called on him as a dangerous animal because he didn't do the "yes master" thing when a stranger entered his pasture.
Mostly, it's sheeple following the groupthink.
As a professional riding instructor who has seen waaaay too many accidents involving stallions and their stubborn users/riders/owners who all claimed "No, it´s not a problem, I promise", I won´t honour your onesided, narrowminded and obviously ill informed view with an answer about actual knowledge of the hormonal and behavioural dynamics in other horses when a stallion is present. Just let me say this: You don´t see things correctly, once again, your own bullshit got into your own eyes... There´s a reason why stallions are kept faaar away from geldings and mares, in some stables, stallions even have their own stable tract (if the stables accept stallions boarded at all). Or do you say that stable owners only have too much money and build a separate tract "just because they can afford it"? Once again, you provide a simplified answer to a complex issue...
Stallions/donkeys, female housecats, rabbits, and sheep are the main animals I'm still on the fence about as far as altering goes. Stallions can be owned and handled safely by people with dedication and/or experience (I've met some at horse shows who were perfectly behaved and their riders/owners obviously had them in very good control) but the group dynamic and behaviors do change when they're in groups with other horses. I've read and heard from multiple folks that intact jack donkeys are even worse than stallions and often attack people with very little identifiable triggers. Ram sheep are apparently very aggressive as well. I think when animals can pose a very real threat to people even if they're housed and handled perfectly because of hormone-charged behavior, that's a fair case for altering. Livestock have been altered at an early age for hundreds of years with no sign of ill health effects, which imo is different from dogs where we actually see health problems resulting from altering before maturity.
I have some friends in the cat fancy and the word from most breeders is female housecats actually do lose condition and tend to go downhill health-wise if they are not spayed at the end of their breeding careers. Cats go into heat much more often than dogs, usually once a month, and the hormone fluctuations combined with not breeding apparently usually causes problems. That said, I will wait with my next cat to spay once she's physically mature at 1-2 years instead of 6 months, but I probably won't go without spaying at all.
Female rabbits are similar. Rabbits being... well, rabbits, are designed to constantly be breeding and producing babies. Mammary and uterine cancers are extremely common in intact non-breeding female rabbits. However, rabbits also don't do well with anesthesia and deaths on the surgery table are common, so it's up to the owner imo which risk they want to take. With the advice of my vet, I elected not to spay my female rabbit (she has no behavioral issues or aggression like lots of intact females have). She was two years old at the time and my vet told me that the risk of cancer and the risk of her dying under anesthesia were basically the same likelihood at that point, so I chose not to put her through surgery and am keeping a close eye on her health in case anything does pop up. With the risk being the same, I'd rather have more years with her and possibly have her get sick later, than lose her now because of anesthesia complications.
That got long and off-topic, oops. Anyway, my relevant point was I can see the case for gelding stallions and other livestock animals. I would be more apprehensive about it if we've seen health effects because of it like we do in dogs and some cats, but so far we haven't. If a study is done to prove that wrong I might change my tune. But human safety is just as important as the animals', and in the case of (most) stallions, jacks, and rams, the best way to keep humans safe is to geld.
For the record and since it's relevant to this thread and I figure I should just throw it all together in one comment, I don't like pediatric altering in dogs and cats, especially dogs. But I also don't think a lot the general public in the USA is responsible enough to properly control their pets and keep them from breeding, so altering is kind of a necessary evil. The ideal if you must neuter imo is waiting until the animal has reached maturity, which can vary by breed, and do it then. Or vasectomy/ovary-saving spay for dogs but you must also be willing to train around the same behaviors that an intact dog would have.
I live in a different world than you do. As I drive down the road I live on, at least three out of every five houses have horses in the back yard. The closest boarding facility is twenty two miles away and I don't know where there is another. This works because the minimum size for homestead property around here is five acres.
So horses are far more common in Texas and people are used to them outside of the major metropolitan areas. Humans and horses live a much more natural lifestyle because we want to. Stallions that are raised in families and not isolated are not insane. Of course care must be taken not to breed idiots but ninety percent of the "dangerous stallion" myth is just that, myth.
I was told that my guy must be separated from all other horses or he would kill them. The wallpaper on this machine is him playing with a six month old filly. The youngsters like him because he doesn't enforce the rules like the mares do.
I knew an Arab stallion for most of his life that was the go to horse for small children. He could be a handful for a man but was spectacularly careful with children. Have you ever considered that if you were to treat a horse with respect instead of fear, you might get some different results.
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Let's take the simplest first. Food animals are neutered because the USDA (and most similar agencies) rate meat by the fat content. The more fat marbling the higher the rating and the higher the price. The animal also gains more weight and therefore sells for more. They aren't going to live past the early stages of adulthood anyway so secondary health effects are not a factor.
If the animal is going to live a full life (like a companion animal) neutering before full adulthood is cruelty. The hormones of puberty do a lot more than activate the sex organs. Things like the growth plates in bones are closed and many growth processes are stopped. Just take a look at the recent world's record tallest dogs. All are neutered Great Danes and all died relatively young (around 7 years) of bone cancer. Studies have shown that this is not co-incidence. "So they don't even know what they are missing" is propaganda.
Obviously, I am prejudiced. My favorite horse is a stallion. I prefer the stallion personality and have very little trouble keeping him. He has scared a couple of neighbors but all he actually did was say "no" and walk off when they came in his pasture thinking he would be as friendly with them as he is with me. Their hysteria did the rest. One of them was there because his mare slid under the fence to get to my guy. My guy has never gone walkabout though that may be because he has everything he wants including frequent sex at home.
Dogs may actually require a full blown hysterectomy because of the possibility of pyometra. Without the cleansing effect of pregnancy, a bitch's chances of pyo increase with each subsequent heat. A hysterectomy for a full sized horse would be so expensive that most owners will replace the horse instead.
I have gone head to head with PETA/SPCA representatives at public shows over their "no vasectomy" policy. There is a high percentage of Hispanics in Texas and most of them will not have a family member castrated for cultural reasons. Offering vasectomies as an alternative would increase their penetration into a major market segment and reduce the stray population in some of the worst areas. I have had the cops called on me describing me as a "pervert" for simply bringing the subject up.
Re how livestock castrations are performed, how do most predators treat their food?
I see what you did there.
What is the argument against vasectomies? That's news to me, though not the part about PETA/SPCA being illogical. :P
Understand that I very much am NOT part of the PETA/SPCA inner circle but in debates with them I have heard a lot of the old Randy Pepe/Zoobuster propaganda. A vet has also cited it to me as a reason for refusing to perform a partial spay. I have also heard a number of "knowledgeable" professionals swear that animals are too different from humans to apply such procedures to them.
This is probably the biggest obstacle we have to overcome. As long as "experts" like this are willing to oppose us in the public discourse, we will have a very uphill battle.
I really think is something that is best decided case by case, even if I lean towards keeping animals intact when possible. It feels wrong to cut out parts of them just because we think it has no use.
For dogs, I think they are just fine by staying intact, as long as you can keep watch over them so that they don't produce unwanted puppies. It is perfectly normal for canines to go through a heat cycle without being bred, they are not harmed by it in the slightest. The majority of dogs in Sweden (where I live) are intact, and we don't have a problem with stray dogs. On the other hand, we do have a problem with homeless cats even though the majority of cats are 'fixed'. So obviously, there is something else that stops the problem with strays than neutering.
I don't understand why tubal ligation/vasoligation isn't the normal option at the vet. It's makes them unable to produce, but it's a less invasive procedure than removing the gonads.
My guess is that it's because people claim it's about reproduction control, but in reality it's about people wanting a more docile/compliant animal.
Or put another way, it's people who aren't qualified/equipped to keep a particular animal wanting to modify the animal to solve the owner's own selfish "needs."
For some reason my suggestion that married couples get each other spayed/neutered to solve aggression problems and infidelity has so far not been well received.
Let me give you an even bigger idea. Study the very successful screw worm fly eradication program in the US. Wouldn't having healthy, sterilized pets competing with strays for breeding opportunities have at least some similar effect?
Interesting.
What you said, except of course there is no god. :)
Just ask people that if they for some reason had to be sterilized what method they'd chose for themselves, and then ask them if their dog had to be sterilized what method they'd chose.
I think it's weird that animal rights advocates usually don't consider this to be an issue at all but maybe they just haven't caught up.
if you cant handle owning an animal, then you dont get to, and vice versa. simple enough