This is a crosspost from /r/Bestiality/, since the latter seems to be mostly on porn by this moment. Please share your thoughts here on the following subject:
---- Hello, fellow redditors.
You've probably noticed the thread that was posted on /AskReddit/ previously today. As a response to that question someone tried to give some advices to the non-present son of the OP from the perspective of an ex-zoophile.
I was surprised at the way he portrayed how horrific and disastrous zoophilia is\can be. Here are some highlights from his advice letter to help you grasp what I mean:
That entire period of my life, once my parents discovered and became involved, was a period of deep anger and shame. I was adolescent, I was horny, and quite frankly, seeking sexual outlets. As it turned out, animals were the nearest outlet. I had crazy, optimistic ideas. I'd challenge and strike down the state bestiality laws. I'd fight for recognition, for acceptance, no different than GLBT groups. People would see that I was doing no harm and I'd pull through unashamed and clear. Obviously, that didn't happen. [..] In what is pretty much the most humiliating moment of my entire life, I was hooked up to a penile response probe, and made to watch videos of people ranging from 3 to 20 in undress.
I'd like to ask you to pass this on to your son, for me: [..] Here's what you're going to do: Clam the fuck up about this to anyone that isn't your family, or friends with whom you really would live and die by. Nobody else should know, or will want to know, and in years and years and years to come, you will be eternally grateful that you never breathed a word about this. Because that shit will linger, it will follow you through life, and worse yet, you will spend too many years of your life terrified that the good, normal life you've built for yourself will come crashing down because the wrong person heard the wrong rumour. [..] You have fucked up. You have fucked up colossally. But your life is not over, and for better or worse, you'll be dealing with this for a long time to come. [..] as soon as possible, get dating. Guys or girls, whatever, but get dating. And don't say a fucking word about your problems at home. Just date. Meet folks, hang out, go out, make out. [..] It took me three years of personal hell to dig myself out of that hole that zoophilia put me into. There's parts of my life that will never be brought back, and parts I will take to my grave, that will weigh me down for a long time. But... it gets better. [..] I don't envy your next few months and years... but if your parents love you as much as it sounds like they do, I think, eventually, you'll do fine.
I'd like to point out that I'm not trying to trigger a circlejerk on “how good\bad, moral\immoral zoophilia is”. Rather, I'm asking you to help me understand if it is usually really this bad for a zoophile if others find out\learn about his\her sexual interests.
I understand the animal-abuse part, but the comment (and many other replies made in the thread) is not portraying that part as something severely socially-disastrous, but zoophilia itself, as a whole. And I can't really get into understanding on how the social implications of it can be that disastrous.
(Sorry for the errors, if any — I did my best trying to stay away from them!)
In short, the consequences of being exposed as a zoo are incredibly environment-dependent.
For example, I unabashedly came out to a friend of mine recently, and that went very well. The man is very trustworthy, intelligent, and, being a part of the BDSM scene, very level-headed when it comes to alternative sexualities. Furthermore, he knows me; he knows that I'm a good person, knows that I care about animals deeply, knows that I'm not a crazy freak who just tries things for the shock value and would end up simply using animals as sex objects. He ended up listening to me very well, didn't judge, and came out almost approving of it.
On the other hand, it's easy to imagine a less-than-sexually-liberal environment in which social mores and taboos carry incredible amounts of psychological weight. In such an environment, coming out like that can be very detrimental to one's social well-being. The threat of social ostracism and punishment for maintaining a sexual interest towards another species is enough, in many environments, to cause really significant amounts of distress. This seems to have happened to the "ex-zoo" who posted in that thread. I hesitate to call him an ex-zoo, though, since I don't believe he deserves the zoo label to begin with; based on his own wording, it seems that he chose to use animals as a sexual outlet. Being a zoo isn't something one chooses, in my opinion.
And the reasons why it's not something one chooses are precisely the reasons he outlines. As far as your social self goes, being this way sucks. A lot. For people who don't know what they are getting into, I imagine that it takes a serious mental toll. Not to mention, if you're in the wrong environment and get very unlucky, you can be completely socially alienated if you're found out; you can lose your job, lose your friends, lose the respect of your parents. There are a number of cases of people having been severely beaten and killed for being open about having zoosexual feelings, or for being discovered. And that's not counting the scores upon scores of historical cases in which both partners were likely horribly and painfully executed for their perceived slights against the public, most of which have probably been lost to the ether of history. This is also, admittedly, an entirely Western (more specifically, American) view of the subject.
So yes, coming out as a zoo can be a complete and total disaster if the stars fail to align for you. Most of the time given the current general social climate, it won't be good, and certainly won't win you any friends, but it won't be horrific. Occasionally, as was the case with me, it will be a constructive experience and a relief; it can be an experience that takes "the last taboo," all the stress, all the anxiety, and turns all of it into something you can laugh, joke, and be honest about with friends in a very positive way. However, this best-case scenario is not very common.
Like I said the beginning, though, it really depends on the environment one is in.
I'm sorry if I haven't been terribly specific, but I hope I clarified things a little.
"Being a zoo isn't something one chooses" you say. I would speculate that there is a sort of Kinsey scale for animal sex lovers. With Complete Zoophiles on one end, say the 0's and Complete bestialists on the other end, say 6's.
I started out with a dream about animal sex, then years later had an encounter with a female dog, then did no more than think about animal sex till I was in my mid twenties, when I attempted pony sex. But it wasn't until I was in my late thirties that I really looked into animal sex. And at first it was strictly about the sex. It was strictly bestiality. That grew into something more as I developed bonds with various animals.
(x-post of my other comment)
While the person whom you quoted is correct about society's extremely negative view of zoophilia, there's a very important part of this wich might be missed skimming over it quickly:
This person is someone with a fetish for sex with animals, which is quite different from a zoophile. He made it very clear that he was only in this for the sex.
Now, there may not be anything wrong with that provided that the animals weren't uncomfortable nor abused, but zoophilia is completely different. Zoophiles love and care for their animal partners in the same ways that they would for a human partner. It's not all about sex. For some, sex isn't even involved. When it is, every precaution is taken to make sure that the animal is comfortable and willing as well.
I'm sure they are. People think of zoophilia not as a sexual orientation or even a fetish, but as a disease. It is something that people need to be cured of. Without having given it much prior thought, having sex with animals as seen as the equivalent of raping a child. I've found that a surprisingly large proportion of people are willing to change their outlooks after they've been educated about zoophilia, though.
Is this visual representation of what you and others are saying accurate? Or I'm missing something else?
I guess I was oversimplifying the society and general views on this. It's just hard to understand how and why would others freak so much out on this by judging from my perspective, from where it seems more of something weird then anything else.
Er, not quite. Some zoophiles don't have sex with animals, but have a love for them beyond what a "normal" pet owner would have.
It's a complex situation, a lot of things have to be taken into consideration if you are coming out of the stable. It's horrific that he underwent all of that, it's horrific that he had to lie to himself, it's horrific that he had to be something that he was not in order to fit within a normal life. Can this happen? Maybe. You shouldn't come out about your love for animals if it means having your life torn apart. I'm sorry, I hate to advocate that, I hate to tell people to hide who they are, but this is the kind of society that finds it difficult to accept same-sex couples who have been fighting for decades to be given the same rights and be seen as just as normal. It's an entirely different game with zoophilia, the most prominent factor being consent and abuse of the animal, to which most zoophiles would fight tooth and nail against. It's going to be a long and dangerous uphill battle, shit will hit the fan and we need to be ready and prepared for that.
That being said the person who made the comment doesn't sound so much like a zoophile but more of like a person interested in bestiality. It sounds like he was in it solely for the sexual factor rather than the love factor. There is a difference even if the world doesn't recognize it.
If it's that bad depends on the people. I for one told many people, even my family. There was a huge fight, but not anything torn apart. In the other hand, I don't think I wouldn't have told another families I know.
His problem was probably because he said he has sex with animals, he likes it and he does it often. It is quite different from stating: "I LOVE animals (more than most people)".
I think his problem wasn't that he was into bestiality. His problem was how he told everyone about it.
What was the fight about? I mean did it happen because they were just having difficulties accepting the given new information from you or they were trying to persuade you of something?
They didn't want me to be like that, of course. But what could I do, and how should I care? That's my life. If I want to life with dogs only that's my decision.
They forgot about it. Claimed it as a phase.
Personally, I don't believe him. It's not even legal to show suspected pedophiles child pornography in the US. They're shown in swim suits and the like.
Additionally, that sort of thing does NOT cure paraphilias, period. We've known that for ages, and no matter how much you think A Clockwork Orange can teach us about psychology, sorry, but things just don't happen that way.
Either this fellow's father has no idea what the hell he's talking about and his son is secretly masturbating to dogs while his father goes around internet websites to brag about how his kid was 'cured', or this is straight up nonsense.
As far as the response, unfortunately it just doesn't work that way either. Certainly, there are a lot of people out there who just go for animals because "it's the only pussy available" for one reason or another, and this kid might be that sort, but he may not be. If he is, as was stated above, it's not zoosexuality or zoophilia, and therefore really isn't relevant, one would hope, to the community being addressed.
Preferential or exclusive zoosexuality, like pedophilia and homosexuality, is incurable as far as we can see. In the same way, if you say to a gay man, "Dude, just find yourself a woman," and he does and things go well, is he "ex-gay"? Of course not: he's bisexual, and always was. That's the general thinking today, and we should be thinking of our own preferences in the same way.
That having been said, if you are just a bestialist, you should definitely just find yourself a man/woman. ;)
I'm not sure how accurate my memories are, but I think I've read about a similar "therapy" that was used to reveal and "cure" pedophiles. I'll write back on it if I'll manage to find the original articles about it (my bookmarks are ruined at the moment and I'll have to restore them first).
The comment from which I was quoting was not made by the father of the boy, it was made by another throwaway's owner who was claiming to have been once in the same position where now OP's son seems to be.
It's used, along with other forms of therapy, to decrease recidivism in criminal pedophiles. It is quite effective in doing this, but it does not make someone no longer attracted to children, it merely gives them greater control.
You can't be cured of it no more than you can be cured of homosexuality. Yet there are still lots of people that think a cure can be had. Recently in California a ban was proposed (not sure if it passed) to close clinics that specialize in "curing" homosexuals.
I remember one case years ago where a fellow who was a "bottom" homosexual, claimed to be cured after he became a christian. He then went about writing books and giving lectures about how god saved him from homosexuality. Then eventually he was caught hanging out in gay bars. His excuse was that he was trying to help other homosexuals and to do so he had to go where they were. LOL.
An "ex-" homosexual, zoophile, pedophile, whatever is just someone who abstains from the act. Anyone who claims that their attractions have actually changed is provably lying: there is no treatment that is at all efficacious in treating homosexuality or paraphilias, at least not in the long-term.
And in the case of most of them, the only reason to even seek such treatment is social pressures. When you think of it that way, it's quite sad how many do seek it.
Exactly. It's social pressure, family pressure, and religious pressure. What's especially troubling is young children being forced to go to these clinics to be pressured to conform.
Which honestly should not even be legal. They're not endorsed by any major psychological or psychiatric organizations, and there is no research to support their efficacy. It's sheer child abuse.
Exactly so.
Oh, and as far as one's zoosexuality getting out being disastrous, I know of several incidences in which either the individual or his animal lover was grievously injured or killed, illegally and legally, by outside parties. One man's ex-wife outed him and his dog, and he was arrested and his dog put down. Another young man came out and was nearly killed by his own father. Another, featured in the otherwise awful (but apparently not wholly scripted; still looking into it) film COMING SOON, had her lover butchered in front of her.
[deleted]
Yes, they are. To make things worse, though I'm not sure what punishment they got, as they did go to court, I would assume it was only on the level of "destruction of property". This tends to be the case when someone kills another's pet or livestock; generally it only involves a fine.
The most common punishment is "trespassing". But in states where they feel there is a zoophile epidemic, harsher laws are passed and it is made a felony.
Agree. But that's what the holy book commands. And some people are so afraid of the invisible man in the sky, and so certain that they will be punished by him if they don't punish others as commanded, that all sorts of nonsense and mayhem results.
That's awful. And I still don't get it why is the reaction so strong. I'd like to further the discussion on this but I think my arguments will become too creepy for the Reddit and start being more fitting for a more anonymous type of discussion board.
I guess I'll just have to keep all this in mind and be more accurate with secrets like this, if someone ever decides to trust me with them.
Also, can you please help me by identifying how dangerous other topics are?
Can you please put them in a 1-10 scale where 1 is viewed as something "ok" by the society (in your opinion) and where 10 can cause a death sentence (if it is acceptable in the country)? I'm sorry for mixing everything up, but it appears to be that I have a very confused understanding of the human social reality.
It's hard to tell why zoosexuality particularly is deemed so disgusting even compared to other paraphilias. It could be because it has never really been accepted anywhere, or at least nowhere well-documented. It could be because of the major difference between the prevalence of preferential or exclusive zoophiles, and the prevalence of people who have had sexual interactions with an animal at some point in their lives. Sort of a reactionary thing in the same bent as how people repressing their own homosexuality may present to be strongly homophobic. It may be because while people understand how, say, bondage can be sexy, they just don't know a whole lot about animals, let alone how people could find them attractive. I have even had people, in the plural, ask me if I'm worried about an animal having my mutant children.
It would be kind of tough to put paraphilias on a scale of how dangerous they are, due to differences in culture and stuff. In some places, pedophilia is much more acceptable than zoosexuality, such as (I would suggest) some parts of the former Soviet Union, the Middle East, and parts of East Asia. In most of the west, pedophilia is far worse. This even changes between peer groups in some situations.
I'll just say that necrophilia and pedophilia, along with zoosexuality, are two things you should definitely not come out about apart from extraordinary circumstances, particularly pedophilia as it will colour even an understanding friend's ideas of you. They will be looking at you nervously whenever their cousin brings in their eight year old daughter, that sort of thing. Zoosexuality is similar in that way. I have a fine sense of humour and enjoy self-degrading humour, so I'm fine with it among the few friends I have that know about mine, but that's a blessing for them as they seem to have great difficulty being in a situation with me with an animal, even one they know I'm not attracted to, without wondering if I'm staring longingly at their genitals.
Things like dendrophilia and objectophilia are mostly just met with jibes. They're not illegal, and are victimless, so people basically just think you're a goofy horn-dog. It's not dangerous except maybe to your social life.
Fantastic paraphilias like furry and gore are sort of in between the last two categories: people will at least wonder about you in certain situations, but it's not really going to get you into trouble, and no one, with the possible exception of furry if you're extremely open about it, is going to hurt you for it.
BDSM is in the funny position, I find, in which a lot of people are weirded out by it, but it never is actually discriminated against. There are also a lot of real-life communities in large centers dedicated to BDSM, so among the paraphilias listed in the DSM, it's definitely the most widely accepted.
Fetishes are basic. They don't usually come into play in every day life and are rarely anything more than a fun fact about a person.
As far as the difference between sexual zoophilia and bestiality, as far as the huge majority of the public is concerned, there is none. Whether you love your dog with all your heart and use sex as little more than a mutually enjoyable tangent to strengthen your relationship, or you regularly visit a nearby farm late at night to rape sheep, people really don't care: to them, you're a bestialist and that's all that matters.
Exactly. Well said.
The reaction is so strong because of our judeao-christian culture, where our holy book tells us that people do indeed have sex with animals, and humans of the same gender, and all of them are going to burn in hell.
Humans are simple. They need to understand things in the simplest terms. "Born that way" regarding homosexuals is only recently and not completely accepted as to why some are the way they are.
Bisexuals and Zoophiles are still viewed by most as deviants and mentally ill perverts.
As for putting sexual attractions on a scale, that's a complex matter and you'll have to do your own research.
I will say this much though. Anything done between a male and female human in a marriage, penis in the vagina for procreation only, has been the standard of acceptable behavior for many years.
Perversion begins as soon as you go to oral, anal, having sex for fun etc. as far as the moralists are concerned.
Among the wider population, anything between consenting adults even BDSM is considered acceptable, pony people, furries, anything between two or more humans.
The rest fall into a huge grey area. I suggest you read Kinseys studies to get a better picture. But those studies were done in the 1940's. I know the university that Kinsey worked at is still around and still studies sexual maters. Maybe they have updated information. I suggest you Google "Alfred Kinsey".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kinsey_Institute_for_Research_in_Sex,_Gender,_and_Reproduction
-- Publication of Sexual Behavior in the Human Male (W.B. Saunders) on January 5th.
-- Publication of Sexual Behavior in the Human Female (W.B. Saunders) on September 14th.
-- Television interview taped with Dr. Kinsey for NBC broadcast on March 20th.
-- Dr. Kinsey interviewed his last 2 subjects. Altogether he personally took 7985 of the approximately 18,000 sex histories gathered by the research team.
1963, -- By this year, a total of 18,216 sex histories had been taken through use of the interview devised by Kinsey.
1978, -- Publication of Homosexualities: A Study of Diversity Among Men and Women (Simon & Schuster).
-- Publication of Masculinity/Femininity (Oxford University Press), inaugural volume in "The Kinsey Institute Series."
1989, -- Publication of Sex and Morality in the U.S. (Wesleyan University Press).
-- Publication of Researching Sexual Behavior: Methodological Issues (Indiana University Press)
Kinsey Summer Graduate Training Institute, "Understanding High Risk Sexual Behavior", July 22-29.*
2009, New podcast series launched, Kinsey Institute Presents: Conversations About Sex Research
Thank you, this seems to be a very relevant source to what I was asking about.
You are very welcome. You'll find it interesting, as you read through Kinsey's research, that even after all the intervening years, most people are still so much in the dark about sexual matters. People are kept in the dark by their elders, and discouraged from finding out the truth. Bonobos are a good example of this. Discussions of Bonobos are avoided because their very existence flies in the face of common teachings in the church.
Isn't COMING SOON only a "fake documentary" ? In my opinion most critics on their website seem to talk about it as a fiction, comparing it with Pasolini's work and other.
That doesn't matter for what you're actually meaning though.
I am quite sure that it is, but many, including members of EFA, do not realize this. Whether or not it is fake, as you said, doesn't matter; it is still misleading and insulting, and still depicts a scenario that does occur in reality.
Yes, its really that bad for those who go public. Zoophiles at this point in time are looked upon as homosexuals were 20 years ago, as desperate deranged predators who will do anything to 'get their fix", mentally disabled people no better then pedophiles... By refusing to look closer at the extremely varied array of sexualities people convince themselves that something is wrong simply because its different. I have known 1 zoophile in my lifetime who was out about it to his family, and he was even practicing, yet this is a very very rare tale. It'd be more likely for them to be forced into shock therapy or something equally terrifying. I think everyone in this thread needs a hug, I may not be fighting the same battle some of you are, but I feel deeply for the struggles you face in an uncaring and closed minded world :c
I Used to be a active zoo activist. I still am and activist, but not as much as I was. I have a youtube channel and I talk about this very thing in this video
As a long time zoo, or at least bi-zoo, meaning I have a human lover and also animal lovers, for over 12 years. I've said it in reddit before and I'll say it again and again... NEVER, NEVER, NEVER tell anyone about your zoophilia. Discuss it in forums like these sure, but NEVER in real life out in the world. Considering that what.. 10% of the population is homosexual? And bi-sexuals are a grey area that is not well defined yet. And only like 1% or less of the population are zoophiles to one extent or another, there are very, very few people who are going to be able to understand you. So keep it to yourself.
It's interesting to note that not long ago.. just a few years, and maybe still among some, bisexuals were considered perverts even by homosexuals, who felt that you are either born heterosexual, or homosexual, and that's it.. no in-between. So bisexuals are all deviant perverts. Here in the USA we are just starting to come to terms with human sexuality and its many variations.
If you come out as a zoo, and then get so much crap about it that you think you're going to go insane, just lie and say you are cured! Lie to everyone and say you are no longer attracted to animals and it was just a phase you went through. People will believe the lie because they cannot imagine how anyone could think an animal is sexy.