I'm not certain exactly how to formulate my question, but here goes.
My husband and I (we're an m/m couple) are eventually going to be bringing a male canine partner into our lives. But one thing that I'm somewhat concerned about, is that given as we're both more or less submissives I'm worried about our canine partner potentially becoming too rowdy and and generally not behaving/taking orders from us because of a potential perceived notion as the alpha about the house.
The thought occurs to me because of an experience I had with a friend of mine several years ago. He was the one who first introduced me to zoosexuality (or more accurately, my first chance to have a go at it). I lived with him for a while and became essentially friends with benefits close with him and his dog. Over time I noticed his dog, though nice, was generally very "bossy", typically didn't take no or not right now for an answer, and otherwise typically didn't listen to me. This is a change from when I'd first visited where he typically listened and behaved and only started getting bossy after we started playing regularly. My friend on the other hand was able to order the dog around more or less normally, and only rarely allowed him to mount, leading me to assume the dog's behavior toward me was a result of my submitting/his establishing dominance after mounting regularly.
I guess basically I'm curious if this kind of behavior I common, and is so if there's any way to curtail it.
Hey, the best way to do it is to establish your dominance before starting playing. You have to follow his behaviour very closely, one of the best way to do it is to only authorise him to mount you in certain rooms, "punishing" him if he tries where he can't.
My dog hasn't mounted me yet, but I'm not concerned about this happening. He's welcome to be "dominant" over me in the bedroom, but anywhere else is unacceptable. He's smart enough to figure this out.
You can use your position to influence him, remember you control access to things like the outdoors, play, and even sex. If he starts to ignore you make him sit (for example) before he gets something he wants (toy, food, whatever). If he's rude prior to having sex deny him sex. If he suddenly "forgets" what a recall is put him back on the long line and start working recall again until he remembers. In the dog training community this is referred to as the "nothing in life is free" approach.
No exact advice, but some notes from my personal experience:
"Dominance theory" is overrated. Like, a lot overrated. To a reasonable approximation, dogs just don't work that way. (Even wolves don't work that way; the research which originally led to it is now generally regarded as flawed.) That being said, dogs are generally much more comfortable and happy if you can be in a leadership position for them. This doesn't mean you have to "dominate" them constantly, or even at all; it just means he should be able to look up to you as a leader. The fact that you classify yourself as a "submissive" really shouldn't figure into this.
In general, it is much easier to make a dog stop mounting than it is to make him start. Unless you're dealing with a particularly sexually aggressive dog (say, a Rottweiler), I wouldn't worry too much about it. On the other hand, it's quite possible to end up "crushing" a dog by being excessively dominant with him, and that'll definitely take sex off the table (and give you an unhappy dog, too!). Build a healthy, respectful relationship with your dog and good things should come of it.
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Hey Dusky! with you being so active on the subs, I assume you do have personal IRL zoo experience(?)
That being said, I guess I'm just surprised you haven't seen any of the type of behavior Remigus was posting about.
Upvoted you btw, because you're definitely right with the bulk of your post
Yes, I most certainly do have some personal experience in the matter. :)
From what you were saying in your other post, it sounds like this was with a dog you were just visiting often, though, not living with. I haven't had that problem personally, but I can certainly see how it might develop, particularly if you really were having sex with him basically every time you visited. Less of a concern if you're living with the dog all the time.
With this one, it started as just visitation fun time, but he ended up living with me while I fostered him.
All was well actually for probably almost 2 months, before he was really acting aggressively obsessive, and with the intensity of these fights I only was able to give him two chances, or screw ups I should say ...
And it's really too bad, because he was a great dog otherwise, aside from the Overly Attached Boyfriend psychosis... :-/
So now, he lives with a non zoo friend and I can visit only so often, so I really feel bad for him :-/
Here's a bunch of links about why dominance theory isn't real:
http://www.whole-dog-journal.com/issues/14_12/features/Alpha-Dogs_20416-1.html
http://drsophiayin.com/philosophy/dominance
http://healthypets.mercola.com/sites/healthypets/archive/2012/06/06/dogs-dominance-aggression.aspx
Basically, it boils down to the fact that dominance theory is something based on one experiment that one group of scientists did, that was actually done incorrectly. Unrelated wolves were put together in a room and it was found that they established a hierarchical pack system that most people think exists between them and their dogs, which just isn't right. Wolf packs work as families, not "alphas" and "betas" and "omegas," and dogs don't follow the "alpha" concept, either. If a dog is misbehaving, it's usually because that bad behavior has been rewarded at some point, and keep in mind that a reward can simply be attention.
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With the advise of others here, I offer the following.
Dominance theory is the wrong mental model. Dogs will step into a decision framework(usually unhappily and badly) but are happy when you lay a framework of happening. gentle and consistent will work if that's your space. It's really an attitude. Once you there, it's not about dominating but rather direction and leadership. A soft but firm / consistent attitude will create the opportunity for closeness that equates far from leadership. Think partnership with guidelines.
Your dog will react to the guidance. The downside is your dog will likely want to crawl into your pocket.
It's a balance and it takes sensitivity but man it's so rewarding when that state is achieved.
Goddamnit, everyone here is dismissing "dominance theory" (which is more about normal dog training, and CAN easily be dismissed), but he's talking about real experience he's clearly had with PUSHINESS and the dog being a sexual asshole.
I personally also have experience with this exact situation.
With a wonderful beautiful intact Blue Nose, we started having fun, pretty regularly. The problem (which, admittedly, was my fault) was that because every time we hung out, we'd inevitably have sex, he became more focused, damn near fixated, on the sex.
He became VERY pushy (bossy, as remigus put it) and sexually aggressive, and would be whiny and obnoxious when I would say "Not now", and that is a problem when I/we are just trying to hang out with friends.
This actually developed into a obsession and possessiveness that ended with him jumping(assaulting) my original (neutered male) dog, who was not at all in competition for sex, but just wanted to come near for platonic affection.
I do want to make clear that this WAS my fault, and I'm totally responsible for allowing all of it to develop, but PLEASE don't flatly dismiss strong sexual aggression stemming from expectation of sexual fulfillment just because dominance theory has lost its credibility.