Hello!
I avoided the discussion on /u/kkllee's latest guidelines, but I have a few comments to make.
I feel /u/kkllee is an individual who should have our sympathy, rather than our derision. We may (largely) dislike what is being said and how, but shaking our community's peace apart with anger and CAPS doesn't help anyone. It seems to me that the user has good intentions, but lends themselves to arrogance and self-righteousness through other issues they may have, if that is a conclusion I dare draw.
It is my responsibility to look after this community's best interests as dictated by all of you, so I give you the decision of what should be done about /u/kkllee. They will clearly not leave on their own, and arguing is only wearing us down. I believe we should ignore them and future posts of theirs, because I think that banning them will only result in shadowposting by someone so determined. However, I will leave the call to all of you. What do you suggest?
I know we all have different views on what should be done about the zoophile cause. Some believe that we should be sacrificing the present for the future and doing all we can to push ourselves forward, others think that we should simply find ways to deal with what the world gives us and remain underground. Of course, a great number of possibilities lie between. However you may view the future, it is important that we support each other, and not let trivial matters make us into who we don't wish to be. Above all, we must be diplomatic and peaceful in all we do.
~ T-V
Edit: I have ultimately decided to ban /u/kkllee. Some of you will rejoice, others will reproach, but I must do my best to act in favour of the welfare of this community, not the free speech of a single individual abusing my lenience. Their refusal to compromise would otherwise be unresolvable. I'm sorry to those of you who are disappointed with my decision.
Edit 2: I've lifted the ban.
It's not a reason to ban someone. Don't go down that road.
I agree.
I see no reason why we can't just downvote and ignore him.
Because people would rather have an authority sweep away "toxic elements" than learn to control their own reactions the hard way. They can reword it 500 different ways but that's what it's really about.
He only made one thread this time around and it didn't bother me one bit. Biggest annoyance were the 3 extra threads other users made about him.
I wasn't planning to, of my own volition. I hate issuing bans.
You can't delegate. Everyone's votes are emotionally charged. In this pickle, democracy will come at the price of free speech, targetting ideas and not people, and the community's individuals building their own resilience. They're surfing reddit defending zoophilia to a wild audience but they can't deal with getting a supposed concern troll on their own board? How does that work?
Forget I said democracy. It's obviously mob rule, stated so plainly: https://www.reddit.com/r/zoophilia/comments/30wb26/ukkllee_an_intervention/cpxe1ns
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Not really sure why he is getting all the anger, I disagree with needing a law or guidelines like that, but I definitely understand and sympathize with his goal of legalizing zoophilia. Personally I think it should be a lack of law against it though (anything not specifically against the law is legal). That being said there is an issue were people are charged under animal cruelty laws even if they don't specifically mention zoophilia in any way. So I can see were there might need to be some sort of exception/definition there something simple and to the effect of "no sexual acts that bring physical harm to the animal." (although I am no lawyer I am just using that to get my point across)
But to get back to the point, instead of ostracizing him we should fully accept him and welcome kkllee into our community. While you may not agree with him entirely, I am sure pretty much everyone here is in support of zoophilia being legal and can understand how he must feel not wanting to have to risk imprisonment just for who he loves. As a gay person I also understand not wanting to have to hide your love and live in the shadows just because society is so bigoted and cruel.
I don't know how easy some people will find it to just ignore him, or if that will even have the desired effect. /u/kkllee clearly has some kind of obsession with this topic, or he wouldn't persist in trying to ram his "guidelines" down our throat in the face of such overwhelming negative response, especially after having already tried it once and failed spectacularly. Will he stop posting if ignored? Will he actually listen to what the community has been trying to tell him for hundreds of posts? I find it fairly doubtful. I'm able to ignore him and refrain from giving him the attention he so clearly craves, but I doubt every other member of the sub will find it as easy, and it seems a little bizarre to ask literally every other member to behave in a certain way just because of one person. Who are they that we should bend over backwards just to accommodate them?
I think you may well be right when you say "I think that banning them will only result in shadowposting," but, if anything, this would tend to suggest to me that here is a person really deserving of a ban. Anyone who has so little respect for the mods and rules of a subreddit is clearly more interested in serving themselves than the community, and the mere fact that we need a "what are we going to do about /u/kkllee" thread should be a clear indicator that he's a toxic element.
I understand that we as a community want to be welcoming, friendly and accepting, especially of help given by outsiders, but some people just take things too far. For an analogy, if someone gave you a cake, you would be pleased and grateful. However, if someone started giving you cakes every 10 minutes, despite you repeatedly asking them to stop, pushing them through your letterbox and getting icing all over you, all while demanding you enjoy these delicious cakes they were so selflessly giving you, you would be understandably angry. It's easy to ban a troll, or someone who's just spewing hate, but it can be hard sometimes to recognize that even if someone's intentions are good, they can be a negative influence on a community.
There is no controversy over /u/kkllee, no big divide in opinion. His posts are overwhelmingly downvoted, his supporters can be counted on one hand, no-one is engaging positively with him. The community has shown that, at least if he continues to behave as he has (and let's face it, he shows no signs of changing whatsoever), they want him gone, but he has repeatedly refused to listen to them. The only posts he makes to this subreddit are in his own threads or threads about him; he does not contribute or engage in any meaningful way with the community, he causes huge disruption and seemingly doesn't care about it and he refuses to respond to requests to stop.
It pains me to say it, because I agree that banning someone whose intentions are good (at least in theory) is something to be avoided, but in this case, with such a huge amount of disruption caused every time he posts and very little positive to recommend him, I have to say, ban /u/kkllee.
Nailed it. He doesn't care about this community, all he cares about is trying to push his rules on us, which, lets remember, he made without any input from any of us. This is the same guy who suggested a dogs knot be surgically removed to fit into his rules.
He only posts in his threads, he is not a member of this community yet can't see why he's greeted with hostility when he tries to push these things on us. I'm interested to see if he even makes an appearance in this thread...
you gotta ban him. he makes a new name? ban him again, and again until he gets the point.
I can't say I'd advocate a ban, but I will say this: I don't necessarily disagree with what he's trying to do, but I do disagree with him trying to do it without first spending some time to get to know the community. I'd be willing to give him another shot if he sat back and learned more about us before proposing anything else.
the trouble is he's seriously disruptive, we can already see theres 2 groups of us now, those in support of what he's trying to do and those that don't. the last thing I want is for this community to be divided. We're getting split over something that has been forced upon us by a nobody.
I think people here are thinking that if we ban this guy we're suddenly trying to close ourself off from outsiders and alternative points of view. That is not the case. We've had people stop by before and got along perfectly well, whereas this guy is deliberately ruffling feathers instead of being courteous and understanding.
TV, there is a type of troll that many groups are dealing with called a concern troll. They are very supportive and happy to have you with them but are "concerned" over how X is being done. See his response to me in the "you aren't doing anything" variety.
These trolls are very hard to identify and weed out as they are often raising some legitimate issues(I do not feel Kkllee is but that's another matter) which often do need to be discussed.
I think Kkllee is an example of that. His stated purpose isn't being achieved in the least by his actions or his expressed thoughts. He does want to "help us" help ourselves but, and this is where I am strongly opposed to him, his method of doing it is divisive and it seems to me if you notice just how lengthy his posts get, for the attention he is achieving. Two things to remember about him, he did this same stuff in animal rights and farming reddits and was met with the same response and his first thought when presented a technical problem with his rules was to surgically modify dogs so they fit his rules.
He also has said the community Zeta principals "aren't good enough" and has not justified to anyone's satisfaction why they are not. His rules are also not for any concern for animals(see surgical alteration above and such) but rather for control of a minority group.
I'm sorry to see his threads get so much attention here but for good reason, the outrageous often does.
Can you link to the posts where he's doing this in other subs? I looked through his submissions, but must have missed those among all the minecraft crap.
I asked him if he approached farmers and he claimed he did it on those forums with similar results. He responded publicly in his first "rules" thread and you can judge for yourself.
If he did, it wasn't on Reddit, or it wasn't using this account. I looked through all his submissions, and there wasn't anything of the sort there.
Yes, he wouldn't give me links so I'm taking him at his word.
I disagree with /u/kkllee's guidelines, I believe his methods of diplomacy are thoroughly flawed, and as a whole I can't say I care for his presence here. That being said, I just can't advocate a ban.
If you're asking for my suggestion, then for now, I say we let him stick around. Others here disagree, and they're right to do so. This is supposed to be a safe haven of sorts after all, and if something comes around to threaten that safety, it can be frightening. But seeing as /u/kkllee isn't overtly discriminating against us just yet, I'm at least willing to hear him ramble on for a while longer.
It's your choice T-V; whatever you do, I'm sure you'll do it with this community's best interest in mind.
While I agree that he certainly has the right to free speech, other people also have the right to distance themselves from speech they find undesirable. He will not leave of his own accord and seems to think we are in need of his divine intervention to save us. I would personally not have the slightest qualms if he were to leave us forever.
I will on my own accord, list the reasons why I should go and I will respect your desires if I can't find any inconsistencies.
Listen to your users.
The response of the community to this user has been consistently and overwhelmingly negative. It looks as though /u/kkllee has deleted some of his posts, but the two that remain have absymal vote ratios (in the 25% range). This should be a clear signal that we don't want him here. He doesn't seem to have gotten the message yet, so make it explicit with a ban.
I only deleted one post and that was because I committed a mistake on the way I wanted to present it. If negative opinion is all it takes to make me banned, then you might as well make it explicit in your rules, so that you can get rid of me. Here:
It would be in contradiction on the footnote of the rules, but it would get the job done.
BTW, I have a total of five posts. The first and the third one do not have the same abysmal approval rating, in fact in the third one, I found encouragement to write the fourth one (the second version of the guidelines)
…and there you go again, trying to write rules for others. This seems to be a trend. :/
Except this is what you want, I won't go against your will. If I have failed to act as I said I would act, or if I violated a law, I will never visit this place again, I don't know what else you want me to do, I'm throwing myself into the fire and you are complaining.
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Deleted my previous comment because.... so yeah, not going to let him turn this into about him promoting himself on my comments....
Don't feed the trolls.
Edit: for clarity.
I would think the idea is that we would want to encourage the passionate participation of non-zoos for our cause.
Question, if someone came on the forum and was going to answer every thread he was in with "Bestiality is disgusting, you're hurting animals" and start threads with the same theme.... how long would it take to get banned, assuming he never changes his tone? Is his free speech disruptive?
Is that any more or less respectful of the forum, than say a Christian coming to the forum and telling us to find Jesus? The Christian is as adamant that he is helping us and would claim, as this person did, we just didn't care, weren't doing enough to find Jesus, and if we only just tried to live by the good book we'd be saved. Just because he claims to be helping us, doesn't mean that is ever his intent.
The only difference I see between the situations is that this one claimed to be okay with us humping animals as long as we did it his way. Meh, I think breeders really need to stop but I'm not going to parenting forums and proposing rules for procreation.
Also, to characterise this as only three threads... ummm 400 comments or more in the threads, we get what, 400 comments in a month maybe, many of those just jokes and stuff?
So, what does all this prove? We need a new guideline on the right on disruption? really? more rules rather than giving the mod some ability at discretion because he will be torn a new one no matter what he does? If you don't explicitly break a rule, then you are golden no matter what kind of turd you are?