Hey you guys. I promise I am not here to spread hate: my own views should be mine alone and please let me know (gently if possible) if I have offended. Many thanks in response.
Stumbled in while searching for something completely unrelated, must admit never even considered zoophilia on any level before. Got lots of questions though, hope to have a friendly discussion if that's okay with y'all :) I apologise in advance for being ignorant of acceptable nomenclature please correct me whenever possible.
- Geometry
How.....? Is technically any species possible? Do human lovers wish their partners were more physically compatible in any way? Do human lovers feel a lot of frustration with limitations when it comes to communication or sexual arousal cycles or just plain physical incompatibility?
- Ethics of adoption
I foster cats and I adore cats (in the non romantic internet loves cats sense). My organisation also have dogs for people to foster and adopt. They have this amazing 2 week extended visit period, which comes after the formal application and in person interview by long standing member plus the current foster of the animal in question. The goal is that for two weeks the organisation pays for all medical and food and toys and everything, while the adoptive parents can hang out no strings attached with the critter in their home. After two weeks if they are sure then the adoption goes through. If there's no spark then we take the critter back no questions asked. My question is: "is there a kind of ethical code that encourages match making like this, instead of picking up a puppy and hoping for the best?"
From the outside I am unsure what (hypothetical) I would do if I can't date my husband before I married. It wouldn't be really fair to my spouse if I " adopted" him and say, his citizenship and health care depends on me, but then because no spark I then bring another husband home? I mean, that'd be kind of lonely for him to see me play favourites with another dude I am obviously sharing something deeper with right?
Edit: oh wow that sounded totally bitchy I'm sorry! I am mostly just ignorant and confused on how that works. Maybe it's like people with two kids: you love them both equally but in different ways? Maybe it's like people who are polygamous and each animal fills a different but equally loved role? Sorry...
I have so many questions. Hopefully I haven't completely offended everybody yet. :p
Thanks for reading, have a great day y'all
No. Some species, like birds, can be harmed by penetration. Even Beastforum (well known forum) bans this.
Truthfully, human relationships and zoophilia are different. For example, an animal won't care if you love another animal at the same time. (Jealously may be possible, though) Say, you adopt an animal and it is not perfect, for what ever reason. You don't just say, "Begone. I shall choose another." You just take care of it as a pet.
As far as ethics go, most zoophiles adopt a "No Harm" ruleset, such as this:
One of the most common stereotypes out there is that "all zoophiles have low intelligence". Some of us have college degrees. I suppose it is more common in rural areas (farming), because people are around livestock, but I feel that the urge is something deeper than that.
Oh I wouldn't dream of considering a person being into something else as automatically being of lesser intelligence. :<
my current mind set is that I, personally, enjoy heterosexual monogamous human relationships because I was born that way and it offers me X Y and Z. My curiosity is somewhere along the lines of, if relationship with an animal lacks X and Y, what else does it offer that I hadn't even considered?
Follow up curiosity: is there a variant of zoophilia where penis-in-orifice isn't necessary? I mean like, what if a person loved his pet shark on a romantic and emotional level but gets by physically with a silicone toy? Or does the community pretty well only include "likely suspects" such as big cats horses and dogs because without that physical compatibility it just doesn't work?
I've seen some bird zoos over the years. Obviously "penis-in-orfice" sex is not possible with a bird (at least ethically). So yeah, there are some outliers, though I'd say most of us are into animals we can physically mate with. But that may be an assumption on my part.
Heya thanks for replying :D
I think a lot of people hadn't even considered the fact that being close to an animal that hates you could be dangerous. Or....at least it hadn't occurred to me before. :p it's certainly encouraging that the ZETA guidelines pretty clearly say be nice to the animals.
FWIW I think a lot more folks are happy with the modern day version of homosexual couples, where the people are adults and happy and healthy. Compared to say ancient times where there could be slavery or abuse or mutilation for only one person's enjoyment. I don't know that zoophilia will ever be as accepted, but if people can separate "abuse of animal using force and causing discomfort" in their minds from "a loving, stable bond that is built on mutual happiness and care", probably zoos will be treated with much more respect and consideration.
I think its pretty possible to explain the difference in smaller controlled situations, but when just trying to explain things to the general public you get the extreme antis who use triggering words to persuade people on the fence.
I think perhaps there aren't enough people even willing to come towards the fence.
Take even an innocent subreddit like awwinverts --> spiders = nuke from orbit automatic response.
The trouble is that you don't even need extreme antis to trigger that instinctive NOPE unfortunately.
I mean, until 24 hours ago I somehow had the vague notion that animals were always distressed in a situation and that was the norm. :/
I'd just like to add, thank you so much for taking the time to reply.
I get that I am an outsider and my snooping around is probably unwanted. I made the thread after reading quite a few posts on your fine sub along the lines of "how do we reach out to non-zoos??".
So....this is me reaching out.
This isn't a fetish for me. I'm not here for fap material. I'm not here cuz I'm trying to be edgey or pretending I am a unicorn or ew look at these people. I'm here curious because I just discovered a new nationality. I want to hear about your cuisine, your best landscapes, your government's quirks, your real estate and where there might be common ground despite a very different upbringing.
I'm sorry that oppression has built up mistrust and I think there are definitely good reasons to reject outsiders and err on the side of extreme caution.
So....thank you, /u/electrifoxx for taking the time. :)
Jezus. You're more than okay to be here, lol. I think we got a few non-zoo people around here too. This isn't just some kind of elite group. In fact, most people here love to (finally) be able to explain themselves to someone who's actually willing to listen. It doesn't happen all that that often.
Yeah I saw a lot of negative posts even here. I mean, what is the point of coming to yell at someone in their own home. :/ plenty of other places to yell already.
Anyway! I'd be happy to hear any thoughts of yours regarding the subject. :D did you struggle to figure out what you like and not like for example? Have any portion of your ideas changed since early introduction?
If anything, the moment I realised/accepted I was a zoo everything just finally clicked. Everything suddenly made sense. Unlike my peers I wasn't all that fussed about girls, about having a relationship with them, having sex with girls. Never bothered me either though. At was only when I was around 23 years old I, out of nowhere, fell completely in love with a dog I was caring for. Not just like that I liked him, he was always on my mind no matter what. I had butterflies inside me whenever I saw him. It was the first time I felt true love, exactly like how my friends have always described it. Except it was for a dog. It felt liberating.
I have memories all the way back to when I was 10 or something that have suddenly started making sense. I have been a zoo all along, except I never realised it nor made the connection.
Nothing as far as 'ideas' have changed really. It just decided to spend more time researching dogs (and wolves) and just fell more and more in love with them.
Do people keep asking you about girls or guys then? Publicly people are SO nosey! How do you handle the questions about your dating life?
Are you still with that dog? Unlike with people, there's probably a much higher probability of an animal you meet and like belonging to someone huh?
Long time ago I heard of a research in Russia to breed tame foxes. I wonder if there's an equivalent effort to breed tame wolves? Or would that defeat the purpose of being with a wolf if it's tame?
The research in Russia produced curly tailed, more dog like foxes as they became more tame.
Genetically, I doubt a wolf would remain a wolf if you tried to breed it to be tame. You'd end up with a husky.
Not often but yeah, it happens. Working with some over sexualised men who could only talk about girls and sex was fun.. Best was to just lie and even fake it. I didn't trust them one bit they'd understand or even have the ability to keep it to themselves.
Regardless, my parents and most of my friends actually know. I work with animals 24/7 and I don't want to feel I have to hide it or be ashamed of it (even though work life != personal life). Each and all of them understand that I am much happier being with animals this way.
Yes, my dog is still here. Sleeping on my bed as I write this :)
If you'd tame wolves, wouldn't you end up with dogs? lol. Or maybe more like wolfdogs. Though it's a fantasy, it's absolutely unreasonable to be with a wild wolf. I love studying their behaviour and things like that though, and I have been with captive wolves a few times as well.
Oh that's awesome that you have supportive friends and family :D
Hurray!
Yeah, you'll find that many people here are very welcoming to outsiders who behave appropriately. It could mean a small step toward social acceptance.
That's cool :D thanks
What's a thing that most people would not be aware of that you think should be more well known?
Do you have a personal take on this subject that you consider fringe even for this community? Vice versa?
Well for one any real zoo actually cares deeply for their animals, exactly the opposite of what many people assume. My dogs are the center of my world. It wouldn't make sense that I'd abuse them and such. Its not a matter of objectification, I greatly analyze my dogs language and emotional well being in all aspects of their life. Most zoos can probably read an animals emotions better than your average person as well, just from exposure.
That's such a sad irony eh, the reversal. And it unfortunately also allows abusive people to hide behind you guys :(
I don't know any zoos in real life but I have mad respect for the non profit I voltuneer for. It takes a huge amount of money and time and love to get to know animals' own language and what they like and don't like.
Maybe it's like "are arranged marriages an evil idea": many sad stories due to abusive people exerting control, being self gratifying only and domination, but in and of itself arranged marriages can work out well with respectful loving reasonable people.
There's always going to be the questions of "real consent" and "power imbalance", but I would be happy to live in a world where all people who approach animals in a sexual manner do so with loving kindness only.
Yeah but anyone who is competent and has met a dog can see physical methods of consent, and even power balance. Ever had a dog that doesn't feel like doing something you asked it to do lol?
My only experience with seeing an animal in heat (??) was, once, when i was very young, I was petting someone's house cat, and then he (?she?) would turn her butt towards me. Which by itself is standard Kitty behaviour. I was chatting with someone and twice I think I touched its * -- SFW by mistake. It was very confusing but I think in hindsight, after decades of petting kitties and never having had that happen again, that Kitty was coming onto me. O..o
Do you think, though, an animal that is attracted to its person, may be doing so because it has a very limited choice in mate though? Like, it's settling for the person instead of choosing the person?
While some animals are monogamous, a lot of them are not. They also don't really value sexual contact the same way as people do. I couldn't say anything toward legitimate attraction, but if an animal likes and is comfortable with a person and knows the option is available, then I don't think they would hesitate to seek the option out if it is what is available.
Good point, that.
I'm so happy to have received answers to my questions in this thread. It really made me rethink a lot of things as well as just brand new exposure to things I've never thought about.
For example I never knew how odd it was that I was all hung up on harm and consent, when I've been a life long unrepentant carnivore. Like, if compassion etc was the argument, it doesn't get any more fucked up than enslaving, then killing and eating them.
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I for one, love these kind of posts.
Any outsider willing to approach this with logic and an open mind is worthy of much respect. Too many judge this issue without thinking about it at all. Thanks for not being one of them.
You're welcome.
:D hey your flair says deer! Does one....keep deer? Do deer farms exist? Is there a place where people raise fawns?!
Heh, yeah I'm one of a kind. ;)
Actually, I'm not (there are other deer zoos), but we are sorta rare.
I currently have no mate. My last mate was a doe who lived in a "no hunting" zone in Northern Idaho, and was very tame. I consider her my soulmate and her passing (which happened about 5 years ago) has been very hard on me.
As for whether or not people keep deer, yes, people do. I hear it's especially common in Texas, of all places. Most of these deer farms are commercial in nature and produce venison meat as a primary export, or even will provide deer for "canned hunts." It's been a longstanding fantasy of mine to rescue a doe from such a place.
Unfortunately, I'm a bit of a sad case. My parents found out about my relationship with Willow (my last mate) because I told them when I was young and foolish. They forbade me ever seeing her again, and for lack of a better term, drugged the shit out of me to try to "treat" my zoophilia. The result is a very shy man who now fears the very outdoors itself (agoraphobia, it's a blast trust me).
It's made that fantasy of rescuing a doe something that will likely never happen.
Also, it made me miss the last 6 or so years of Willows life. When I finally got back to her, she was gone.
That's my story in a nutshell. Sorry, it's kinda a downer.
Hey, sorry I hadn't caught your post.
;_; that's very very sad I'm so sorry for your lost and your treatment. I hope you are doing better these days.
Is it possible to volunteer at a wildlife rescue?
Not in my current health condition, I am afraid.
I spend my days posting online because I can't do much else. I... hurt at this reality. But I hope someone will learn from what was done to me and the world will change, if even only a little.
It was nice to read your questions, both because they were very polite, and very rarely asked.
As electricfoxx said, quite a lot of species are just not the right size and shape for humans. Most zoos seem to fancy dogs (very variable in size but surprisingly similar to humans) and horses (which are, if anything, too big for humans). As I'm a horse/dog person myself, I can't speak for those that fancy, say, elephants.
As for the ethics, I can only speak for myself and those I know personally. One adopted a dog who had absolutely no sex drive, and therefore no sex happened, but the dog was loved and looked after for a lifetime and mourned when old age came.
Many of us on this forum subscribe to an ethical code called the ZETA principles (hence the greek ΞΆ in the title banner), the name in English sometimes stands for Zoophiles for the Ethical Treatment of Animals. (I think it's different in German, but I'm having trouble loading the relevant website at the moment).
Regarding your follow-up question, there are dildos and flesh-lights for all sorts of different species, including fictitious ones like dragons.
(Sorry if this is a bit terse, I'm in a bit of a rush at the moment and my internet is flakey).
Thank you for your response :D
I looked at the survey results posted on the sidebar there -----> and it was super eye opening. What surprised me the most is the variation of answers..... There's a whole gamut of many axes and a person can fall on any extreme along each one.....so complex!
I think maybe dogs are easier to obtain and keep, and then to varying degrees horses and donkeys. If, say, big cats and elephants were common and easy pets perhaps that would draw more folks (?). It would seem to me that an affinity for "difficult" species would be most unfortunate. :/
Yeah, we come from all walks of life :)
such good questions.
some people are indeed attracted to animals that are physically incompatible (or even species that are extinct or are mythological). however.. skipping ahead a bit -
some members of the community accept those who aren't attracted to "likely suspects" and some don't.
getting back on point, it doesn't even have to be a creature that is physically incompatible that could cause frustration for the zoophile in question. IMO, listing big cats as a "likely suspect" makes sense in some regards (due to being a commonly attracted-to group of species), but in the sense of compatibility, is difficult to place in a list of likely suspects due to the fact that they're potentially dangerous to be around.
in regards to limitations in communication, yes, some find it difficult or frustrating, but the fact is that we can communicate with some species in a reasonable manner. non-humans communicate with each other plenty, and humans can learn to understand what is being said fairly well. obviously, there's not going to be any philosophical discussion going on between human and non-human, but simple things like "i'm hungry" or "let's play" or yes, "i'm horny", can be easily communicated.
this is a tough one, though i don't think most other zoophiles would see it that way. personally, i like the idea of the adoption scenario you put forth, though as electricfoxx said (and i believe most would say), the expectation is that you'd adopt this animal and care for it for the rest of its days. i will admit that i think it would be confusing and frustrating for an animal to be taken in, then sent away after a few weeks if the adopter didn't feel a strong bond forming with the animal adoptee, but it would be helpful even to see if there was a possible platonic bond, let alone a possible romantic bond. the complication here is that often an animal will not be comfortable in a new environment for much longer than 2 weeks, meaning that you will not see the animal's true or full personality in such a short amount of time.
i guess all of this rambling can be summed up as - it would be nice if animal dating were possible, but it isn't really feasible, nor is it likely good for the animal in question, so .. it really does boil down to what electricfoxx said. you simply have to make peace with the fact that you're taking a chance, and hope that you find an animal you can be romantically involved with when the time is right, and if you can't .. you have to keep them and carry on, hopefully still having room/finances to adopt another and try again.
that's a big question we all try to answer (especially those of us with minority sexual orientations).
it's not about what a relationship with an animal offers (necessarily). it's (mostly?) about attraction/orientation. if you're strongly attracted to (for example) german shepherds, it isn't about what a relationship with one would offer, it's a simple matter of "i find german shepherds beautiful -- i would like to have a german shepherd as a mate/partner/etc."
arguably, sex isn't mandatory to call oneself a zoophile (some will debate this point).
i think most would disagree. seeing non-zoophiles come here to kindly ask questions and civilly discuss the subject is very welcome (IMO).
What a wonderfully detailed response, thank you for your time and kindness.
I think I was perhaps silly too think this community all share the same values and ideas. The more I
lurkread, the more it seems there is no central consensus on any given sub topic. That could be really isolating and frustrating eh? I am only able to guess at it from the angle of say, my favourite video gaming sub. What if we all play the game so differently and couldn't agree on much? And gaming is so much more trivial than orientation. (Even "is this an orientation" seems contested)So many questions!
It's a broad topic so it might be better to think about it in broader terms. Instead of thinking about it like a sub for a particular game, think about it as a sub for all video games - you'll have some people who like shooters, some who like puzzlers, some who like RPGs... And it divides even further - some like western RPGs, some like JRPGs, for instance... But you all have the common thread of loving games.
Likewise, though our species interests differ, and though we may disagree with each other - quite strongly, in some cases - we still do have a set of common experiences, some common value, and a love of animals.
That's a good way of looking at it actually, thank you :)
I just want to point out that this implies a heavy male focus, whichever side this will be. While zoophilia per se is a platonic state of mind, even in a physical 'relationship' (which is not comparable with a human relationship, obviously, for a number of reasons) there doesn't have to be a penis entering anything. Or to be blant, there are also lesbian zoophiles.
That's what I am curious about as well. I originally had the vague notion that attraction and appreciation alone would be part of the identity. But most posts seem to have a much stronger focus on penile related connection whether giving or receiving.
Maybe there's a large silent portion who, because for them it is more "platonic", don't feel the need to post because they experience fewer dangers and frustration?
It's cool to hear that exists though, that there's a full range.
I once read the theory that males are more open about their sex life, including answering polls or registering on forums, which makes it hard to accurately guess the numbers of lesbian zoophiles. Since this whole zoo business is usually kept secret anyway, this tendency may account for the apparently much higher numbers of men.
I think the "penile related connection" just provokes more attention, that's all.
Personally, I think being zoophile ist first and foremost platonic. "Zoo" means "animal" and "philos" means "the friend". I'd differentiate between a zoophile and a zoosexual zoophile. You can be attracted and fall in love without having a physical relationship that surpasses caressing and cuddling. It's simply a matter of what attracts you, nobody can do anything about what attracts them and if you're attracted to a animal you are literally a zoophile.
And of course there's a whole range. Attraction and sexuality is a fluid concept, most people will differ naturally. Also, not every zoophile is fixated on animals in the way that the simple presence of a random animal does anything. You're heterosexual, it doesn't mean you jump on any other sex person you see. Further, some zoophiles even long for a human relationship but only find what fulfills them in a animal at a certain point which can also be grounds for frustration.
One zoophile cannot speak for the next, just as one homosexual has no right to claim to speak for others just because they share a very general characteristic of something that cannot be measured in metrics.
Hello there.
No it didn't. You have valid questions there.
Check out the replies to this thread from a couple of months ago: https://np.reddit.com/r/zoophilia/comments/3pj4r9/the_ethics_of_using_animal_adoption_as_a_zoophile/
Oh awesome! Thanks!
Everyone has a slightly different definition of what zoophilia means, but to me it means the ability to feel the same kind of love, if not more, that 'the rest of the world' feels for the opposite gender. If you have a partner, sex is usually also part of it, but not always necessarily. I'm a very sexual person, but having sex with a dog is not the reason I consider myself to be a zoophile. I love my dog and I do anything to give him the best life possible. If he wants sex, we can do that. If he doesn't want it, that's totally okay too. As it turns out, he's not really interested in it. We still have an awesome relationship either way.
I feel absolutely compatible with dogs. I never had a problem with communication, we talk without words. As far as physical limitations go, I've not found any either. I think they're absolutely sexy to look at, they are perfect as they are.
As far as adoption goes, from the dogs perspective having a try-out period is definitely great. Not many places do that. Regardless of you're a zoo or not I think this is a good thing. Although I'll have to admit, every dog that comes into my house is going to stay here no matter what. Even if he may not be the one, I feel it's my duty to devote my life to him and make his life as perfect as possible.
I can see what you mean I think. Dogs have many positive qualities that are different from human companions. I can imagine if I were polyamourous it would be easier (in one way) to surround myself with a pack of dog partners than it would be to find that one unicorn person who can handle a human poly relationship. But obviously much harder for other reasons. :/
And yes of course all of the zoophiles will downvote anything that presents them with hard questions...... Or a different way of looking at things....... :/
Pretty sure the random downvotes on this reddit come from people who don't actually have anything to do with it. Like outsiders.
Hi, I also happen to be a non-zoo and I occionally come here to learn about zoophilia, though since I have learned quite a bit I rarely come back anymore, but I find the community great here so that alone sometimes entices me to check in every rare so often.